[b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote] DHFan- doesnt it make sense that standards would change with circumstances? (i.e. OT times, saved by works, vs. NT and present times, saved by grace) (MY REPLY)- This is kind of a \"strawman\" argument (for those who understand debate lingo). See, it never really WAS about \"saved by works\". That\'s a Muslim concept, not a Jewish one. We were never saved by works. It was always grace. Think about it.. Imagine I\'m an ancient Israelite, living my life by Torah. I commit some sin, and now I must make a sin offering. If I\'m a shepherd, this means I must find my best lamb, perfect, spotless, without blemish. Had I used this lamb for myself and my family, this would be the best meat for my family, and the best wool for their clothes. But I can\'t use it for these purposes now. I deprive myself of it, in order to make the sin offering. What if I\'m NOT a shepherd? Then I have to scrape up to acquire the lamb.. Not just any lamb, this must be the perfect lamb. I must offer the shepherd enough to make it worth his time to trade me the best lamb he has in his flock. And again, I do not gain meat for food, or wool for clothes from this transaction. This is all so that I can make a sin offering to the L-rd. Does any of this sound like the kind of thing that is an actual service to the L-rd, to further His kingdom? Heck no! These actions are not \"saved by works\" because these works aren\'t doing anything for G-d. They are not building up the empire of the L-rd. Rather, they are to dig us out of a hole we\'ve gotten ourselves in. This hole must be filled before we can build on top of it. From OUR perspective, however, they are far more powerful. I am deprived of something of value, something which would feed my family for quite some time, something from which I could make a fair amount of textiles, something I could barter and get quite a good offer out of. I have to kill this perfect specimen, and understand that this animal is dying a meaningless and fruitless death because of MY sin... and I would understand that this is what I\'m doing to G-d when I ignore His Word and commit sin. It is not much different today. One big difference is that while offering the lamb is a complicated and costly experience, and really makes me not want to sin for a long time (so I won\'t have to go through the sin offering for a long time), since we now have the Eternal Lamb to sacrifice, it seems to be a far less effective deterrant to sin. I\'m not out anything if I sin, so I may be more tempted to sin next time. I may take a more liberal approach to what is or is not a sin. But I digress. I respectfully submit for your consideration that \'sin offering\' was not for G-d\'s sake, but for ours. He commanded it, yes, but what does it benefit Him? It taught us a lesson, however, a lesson, that many today would do well to learn. It was always saved by grace. Leviticus can tell us the proper procedure to follow for a sin offering, but does it guarantee us that if we follow it to the letter, our sins our forgiven? If not, then it was definitely \"saved by grace\".. It was an exercise to make us feel the full magnitude of our sins, and to change our hearts, so that we may be prepared, so that we may know that our only hope is in the L-rd, in His lovingkindness, and His mercy, that He will perceive our change in heart, our trust in Him, and like Avraham, that He will count it to us as righteousness.[/quote] I probably didn\'t use the exact right terminology there with the \"saved by works\" thing, but the circumstances for being saved were different than they are now, am i right?... so, if how you are saved (technically) are different, wouldn\'t certain other things change, like restrictions or standards... i dont think that God changed his mind, the ciscumstances did (i.e. Jesus\' death on the cross) sorry for the absence guys... christmas vacation for the week