sad to admit that I actually read all of this.... [b]vincent wrote:[/b] [quote] How the above is remotely possible with a world wide flood? Are we to believe that the flood waters came crashing down into what is today known as the Colorado River and then made such a precise 180 degree turn? Another good and quick question for the flood fans, that I dug up on [url=http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#history]Talk Origins[/url] is as follows: [/quote] I don't really see an attempt to explain this.... it seems to me that flooding tends to be the explanation for many geological features.... large features such as this seem to me to be similar [quote] [b]Why is there no mention of the Flood in the records of Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations which existed at the time?[/b] [i]Biblical dates ([url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20kin%206:1]I kings 6:1[/url], [url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=gal+3:17]Gal 3:17[/url], various generation lengths given in Genesis) place the Flood 1300 years before Solomon began the first temple. We can construct reliable chronologies for near Eastern history, particularly for Egypt, from many kinds of records from the literate cultures in the near East. These records are independent of, but supported by, dating methods such as dendrochronology and carbon-14. The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 B.C. +/- some small delta, placing the Flood around 2250 B.C. Unfortunately, the Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid, for example dates to the 26th century B.C., 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood). No sign in Egyptian inscriptions of this global flood around 2250 B.C."[2][/i] [b]And, on the same page:[/b] [/quote] I do not believe the accounts of Genesis to be precise, generation by generation family records.... when the Bible speaks of someone being the son of somebody, it is not necessarily that they were born directly to that person... oftentimes, the genealogies of that time would list the more prominent descendants... also, i believe there is something about the word in Hebrew that also refers to "any male ancestor" someone's gonna need to back me up on this though.. I'm not too up-to-date on my Hebrew lol [quote] "How did the human population rebound so fast? Genealogies in Genesis put the Tower of Babel about 110 to 150 years after the Flood [[url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=gen+10:25]Gen 10:25[/url], [url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=gen+11:10-19]11:10-19[/url]. How did the world population regrow so fast to make its construction (and the city around it) possible? Similarly, there would have been very few people around to build Stonehenge and the Pyramids, rebuild the Sumerian and Indus Valley civilizations, populate the Americas, etc.[2]"[/quote] again, I believe that we're taking the genealogies in Genesis way to straight-forward, literally..... I do not believe for a second that someone wrote down absolutely every ancestor/descendant of somone... basically, see above explanation [quote] Oh, and before I forget, if you are going to appeal to 'it's because of the fall' or some variation, you need to do better then that. You should give us the exact causes and mechanisms that created the follow-remember you are trying to be scientific, right?[/quote] and remember, we believe in a God that created this world and all of it's physical laws and also who has the ability to function beyond them [quote] "Lions (Panthera leo). As zoologists have long observed, these rank among the most efficient terrestrial killing machines on the planet. The lion's combination of speed, stealth, brute strength and state-of-the-art weaponry is beyond repute. A lesser-known lion fact is that adult males, when they take over a rival pride's territory, seek out and tear apart every one of the loser's cubs. As a result, their mothers come into heat sooner, which lends certain benefits to the males. As before, this instinct is difficult to explain without invoking a design hypothesis. The lions need to track down cubs, positively identify them as someone else's, and only then kill them. How would such an elaborate series of complex instincts…just evolve?"[3] Creationists in general often say that there was no death before the fall. This is an odd statement in light of creatures such as the lions-who if they were truly vegetarian before the fall they would have required a massive amount of evolutionary change in order to become the killing machines they are today. In fact, the sort of change they would require would be macroevolution-as their entire digestive system, teeth, and I'd even argue their skeletal structure would need to be changed (after all, why do vegetarians need to be a strong and swift as lions?). The same vegetarian critique of creationism can also be applied to sharks[4]: [img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:iH69Xfsx3k4J:http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/images/shark-mouth.jpg[/img] [b]Are these sharp teeth for eating seaweed?[/b] Please also explain why a benevolent and intelligent God would create an organism that routinely kills babies from different males? Remember, appealing to 'the fall' isn't an answer. Creationists need to explain [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4122119.stm]why whales get bends[/url] Evolution, of course has a good answer, which is to say that [url=http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/]whales evolved from mammals[/url] but creationists naturally can't appeal to evolution for an answer to this question. Was God not benevolent to want to see them suffer from the bends? Or perhaps God didn't have the ability to prevent them from suffering from the bends? BTW-why are whales mammals to begin with? Certainly it would be a much more optimal design to have created them as fish. It would also prevent them from being evidence of evolution, and thus avoid the inevitable conclusion that many people accept that they descended from terrestrial mammals. Was God just trying to trick us? I'm not trying to include a comprehensive list of nature's poorly designed oddities that creationists must-but don't-have to account for. Others have done so and if you are interested in seeing more, please check out the following websites: [url=http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/designed_organisms/index.htm]organisms taht looked designed[/url] - by Winace [url=http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm]some more of god's greatest mistakes[/url] - by Oolon Colluphid [url=http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/4/part2.html]Why believe in a creator[/url] - by E.T. Babinski (Talk Origins) [/quote] what makes you think that we don't believe that God can use evolution?... I believe that that is altogether likely and plausible [quote] Another question for Creationists is, what is the order of creation (check out this [url=http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html]site[/url] for the 'order')? Is it the chronology presented in Genesis chapter one or the chronology in chapter two? Since creationism is supposedly a competing scientific theory, I think it's only fair that we should be able to examine the bible-which would have to be infallible in order for creationism to be coherent-right? What other reason would their be to accept creationism instead of all the scientific evidence to the contrary? [/quote] I don't quite see how Genesis 2 would be the chronology of creation... [quote] Also, why would god create similar DNA in species? The stock answer that creationists give that DNA represents a common designer is quite bizarre. Is god trying to deceive us into believing in common descent? After all, there is no reason why god would have created all the animals on earth using the same amino acids. Furthermore there is no reason why primates and man should be anywhere remotely similar-so why are they? Why would god put evidence down that shows evidence of common descent? Especially when there is no reason for us to share similar DNA?[/quote] so, you expect God to have made everything completely different just because we were going to try and find absolutely every single way to "disprove" his existence and creation.... that's why it's called faith [quote] Why Do humans and primates share the same mutation that prevents both groups from producing vitamin C? How can the creationist model explain the incredibly small odds that we share the same mutation with one of our 'primate' relatives, let alone that we share them with the other primates as well? Luck? [/i] The following taken from this Talk Origins Page:[/quote] I believe that the idea of evolution states that in a certain environment with certain extremes will allow certain mutations to become the norm for that species... in a certain environment, wouldn't it make sense for certain species to adapt in a similar way if that was necessary for them to survive? also, we believe God to be all-knowing.... creating species with certain things that would help them survive would make sense for an all-knowing God to do