I would also like the real question I was asking answered in this post: [quote=RobtheBald] Why are there scriptures like these in the Bible that appear to indicate that you as a parent could have some bearing on where your children will end up spiritually? Proverbs 23: [color=#800080]13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 [b]Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[/b] [/color] Proverbs 22:15 [color=#800080]15Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.[/color] Proverbs 22:6 [color=#800080] 6Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.[/color] [/quote] I understand that we don\'t know who the elect are, but I would like to know why God is speaking as though a parent can have an effect on whether or not their child is elected if they really don\'t have an effect on it? Sounds like God is \"double speaking\" us if He has already elected or not elected one or all of our children for salvation before they were ever born.