[quote]Your first point was about having the Law when He decided whether we were going to obey it or disobey it in the first place. You're absolutely right; God could have chosen to forgo this life altogether and just dump some people in hell and save others.[/quote] That is double predestination, which says that God puts people in hell while I adhere to the more biblical view that there is single predestination where God has chosen those to save and our depravity has put us in hell, by saying that God predestines people to hell is saying that we are not depraved, which the bible is strong on, I don't think anyone could biblically argue total depravity. [quote]The question could honestly be asked, regardless of your stance on free will. I could simply rephrase it: "Why did God give us rules if He already knows whether we'll obey them or not?" That is, of course, unless you are contesting God's omniscience.[/quote] Isn't saying that he didn't know that we were going to break them rules make His not omniscience. Ephesians 1:4-6 says that He chose us (1:4) (chosen in the original greek text is "eklegomai" which means to select) and that we have been predestined according to his will. (1:5) (predestined in greek is proorizo which means to limit in advance) 1:6 goes on to say that God has made us accepted...notice the wording, God has made us accepted, (Accepted is charitoo which means highly favoured, indue with special honour, one could interpret that as saved) This is something that proves that God Chooses us, even with the words that strongly put it across, they lay the way in the greek, so it isn't a mistranslation. The bible says that God planned our lives in advance (I Cor. 2:7) (planned is the same word as predestined in the greek) Why would he plan everything but salvation. [quote]has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills (vs 18)[/quote] Yes, true, he has mercy and hardens whomever he wants to, whomever is in his will, so if he can do that do whomever he wants then who is someone to say that he can, unless the person says no. [quote]Your definition of Calvinism certainly isn't the most popular one.[/quote] It is consistent with what Calvin taught on the issue of salvation, as well as what Augustine taught as well as what Paul taught. But what would you say would be a "popular" definition of Calvinism? [quote]If a parent tells a disobedient child what to do... it is only because the parent knows and understands that the child has the free will to either follow or not follow the instructions and they want the child to follow them.[/quote] Do you remain silence with a 1 month old does something wrong, it isn't old enough to understand what you are saying but you will still tell them anyway. The child and parent is a bad example anyway (I know I brang it up) We are talking about God, the creator and the saviour. [quote]By definition then I think I could make a 3 sided coin or a 4 sided coin... it doesn't have to have 2 sides,[/quote] How many of them have you come across in your life, of cause you could make one but I was talking about a normal coin in my example, not to mention that there are no countries with a coin with more than 2 sides, it would be inefficient to make. [quote]and if you want to be technical every coin has 3 sides[/quote] Nope 2 sides and an edge. [quote]the sin of Adam, that's interesting... so Adam was made to live in the Garden of Eden right? God put everything together in such a way that Adam could live in Eden for eternity.... Adam *chose* to sin.[/quote] Again you are missing out bits that I am saying to help your argument, I am just talking about salvation, we have a free will but it is filthy and can't choose good, and that is why we can't choose God. Your whole argument is as good as nothing because I didn't say that we do everything that God tells us to do, we don't, so that is why he saves us [quote]Honestly, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile free will and predestination, as either term is binary.[/quote] I have covered it before but predestination is God stepping in on something that our free will would refuse to accept, it is totally depraved, how could it choose something as wonderful, good and beautiful as God. If it is the cross that saves us and nothing else then isn't it nothing more than pure blasphemy to say that we must do something to give the cross it's power.