can anyone argue that if God predestines(not foreknowledge) someone to hell He is unloving? or if He predestines someone to heaven, they arnt really loving God? are we not created to be loved by God and to love(as a choice) Him back? if God really does predestine people to heaven or hell, i have no assureance of being in heaven with Him someday, and therefore makes Him a lier, and makes me no longer one of His followers. (thank God its not true)

Post edited by: Swinny89, at: 2007/01/08 20:43

[b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote][b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] So you're telling me God thought that Adam and Eve having a choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives whom he loved so much? What a loving God that would make him.... [/quote] not like we dont make a choice to sin too [quote] And ultimately, EVEN IF he was giving them a choice, he still put the tree there, so he still wanted it there. Regardless of why He put it there, He put it there knowing every person that would suffer for it. So regardless of why, He still chose to. If he thought it was that important or if He loved those lost people that much he would have kept it out of there. But, regardless of why, He didn't. Which means He wanted it there. Knowing it caused sin. He knew. And so he must have wanted sin.[/quote] eh..... really, really tough to try and say that.... God knows what's going to happen, but still gives a choice, therefore he wanted the choice they made to happen... sorry but that's really iffy[/quote] Oh, so you ARE saying that God thought that having the choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives. Now I am very convinced of how wonderfully loving He is, in fact, when I go out and tell others of God I will say "And He is so loving He is willing to condemn you so these other people can have free will." That will be a great conversion technique....[/quote] so... becasue God is loving, he isn't going to really punish anyone? and I am convinced that you really dont have much to say because all you did is try to make what I said look like something absolutely evil here's something along the same line I could say about your idea: next time i go and tell someone about our loving God, i'll say "hey... God loves you, but you might not accept Him, which means that God is throwing you into Hell without giving you a choice about it."... works about the same way as what you said[/quote] I'm not saying that because I do not believe in the eternity of hell. I believe everyone is destined to go to heaven at some point. But do not debate the eternity of hell here in this board there is another for it under General Discussion. I pose another question, assuming you remember Paul? Who while still Saul had his free will 'overridden' when God threw him on his back and blinded him? Here is my question: Was God making an exeption in his case that everyone in the end would wish He'd made for them?

[b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote]I pose another question, assuming you remember Paul? Who while still Saul had his free will 'overridden' when God threw him on his back and blinded him? Here is my question: Was God making an exeption in his case that everyone in the end would wish He'd made for them?[/quote] His free will was not overridden. Yes, he was thrown down and blinded. He still had the choice to obey God's instructions or not. God never forced him, at least He didn't in the Bible I'm reading ;) .

[b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] I'm not saying that because I do not believe in the eternity of hell. I believe everyone is destined to go to heaven at some point. But do not debate the eternity of hell here in this board there is another for it under General Discussion. [/quote] i dont remember arguing about an eternity in Hell

[b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] I'm not saying that because I do not believe in the eternity of hell. I believe everyone is destined to go to heaven at some point. But do not debate the eternity of hell here in this board there is another for it under General Discussion. [/quote] i dont remember arguing about an eternity in Hell[/quote] I didn't say you said that I'm just saying let's not bring it up here because there's already a forum for that ;)

heres my take,Gods got several different paths set out and we have free will to choose,obviously theres the road to heaven and hell,and then theres different roads that lead to hell,but its still all the same road just that you may have a different career and wife,but you see Gods got some layed out,but he knows what your going to choose,but he dosen't choose.Gods got somthing to do with everything,but not every thing to do with everything but with some things. I just though that up hahaha.

Post edited by: sonoftheking, at: 2007/01/23 18:25

[b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote]I pose another question, assuming you remember Paul? Who while still Saul had his free will 'overridden' when God threw him on his back and blinded him? Here is my question: Was God making an exeption in his case that everyone in the end would wish He'd made for them?[/quote] His free will was not overridden. Yes, he was thrown down and blinded. He still had the choice to obey God's instructions or not. God never forced him, at least He didn't in the Bible I'm reading ;) .[/quote] What Scripture indicates that he chose?

[b]Swinny89 wrote:[/b] [quote]can anyone argue that if God predestines(not foreknowledge) someone to hell He is unloving? or if He predestines someone to heaven, they arnt really loving God? are we not created to be loved by God and to love(as a choice) Him back? if God really does predestine people to heaven or hell, i have no assureance of being in heaven with Him someday, and therefore makes Him a lier, and makes me no longer one of His followers. (thank God its not true)<br><br>Post edited by: Swinny89, at: 2007/01/08 20:43[/quote] Wrong: If given justice, all men would spend eternity in hell. God has chosen to give mercy to some, justice to others. Noone gets injustice. You should be amazed and in awe that He chooses to save any at all. If you are among those He saved, praise Him for His AMAZING GRACE.

[b]TrueConvert wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote]I pose another question, assuming you remember Paul? Who while still Saul had his free will 'overridden' when God threw him on his back and blinded him? Here is my question: Was God making an exeption in his case that everyone in the end would wish He'd made for them?[/quote] His free will was not overridden. Yes, he was thrown down and blinded. He still had the choice to obey God's instructions or not. God never forced him, at least He didn't in the Bible I'm reading ;) .[/quote] What Scripture indicates that he chose?[/quote] What scripture indicates otherwise? The story of Saul's conversion can not be used either way.

Unconditional election (predestination) Bible predestination is where G-d pre-determined, not the identity of the saved, but the character of the saved We are not opposed to predestination, for the Bible teaches it. However, Calvin's view of predestination is entirely unbiblical and therefore false doctrine. What is foreknown by G-d in these Bible Verses? Text Personal Identity? haracter, purpose & plan? Eph 1:3-4 1 Cor 2:7 Rom 8:29-30 G-d is not a respecter of persons: Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pe 1:17 G-d does not will that any perish but all be saved: Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Pe 3:9 Makes the Devil no enemy for the saved to worry about, if predestined 1 Pe 5:8 Why beware? Our eternal destiny (heaven or hell) is based entirely upon personal choices we make based upon our own freewill. If we end up in hell, we can only blame we can only blame ourselves! Acts 4:28 What was "determined before?" The death of Jesus! This death had been prophesied as a part of God's plan (Lk. 22:21-22; Acts 2:22-23). The Jews did not realize that they were fulfilling God's plan and He did not force them to kill His Son; they were accountable for their own actions. 1 Corinthians 2:7 The context shows clearly that it is G-d's plan of redemption that was foreordained. In verse 5, the power of G-d is in the gospel (Rom. 1:16). In times past, it had been a mystery, not fully revealed. Even the prophets did not understand completely about Messiah. But now this plan is revealed as the wisdom of G-d (Eph. 3:3-5; 1 Pet. 1:10-12). This sacrifice was "for our glory" or salvation. It was a part of G-d's eternal purpose (Eph. 3:8-11). 3. Romans 8:28-30 Who is under consideration here? "those who love G-d" - not a few whom G-d loves "the called according to His purpose" - we are not called by a still, mysterious voice or by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit or by G-d Himself, but by the gospel (2 Thess. 2:14). Those who hear, believe and respond in obedience are referred to as "the called" (Gal. 1:6; 1 Pet. 2:9). In Romans 8:29-30, we can see the unfolding of G-d's plan. G-d determined to send mankind a Savior to die for all men. He foreordained all of the events before they actually took place. In that sense, G-d predestinated our salvation. It wax not that He selected us individually to be saved or lost, but that those who accepted the gospel call would be saved. Those who answer that call are justified and glorified. Ephesians 1:4-5,11 G-d has had an eternal plan in mind - a scheme of redemption for those who will accept it. Those who are chosen are those who are "in Him" (Messiah) vs. 3-4 We become G-d's children by our faith in and obedience to Messiah's gospel (v. 5). G-d adopts us into His family upon our obedience (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6). The counsel of G-d's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Yeshua to redeem the obedient. The Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that Calvinists teach. The Bible does not teach that G-d has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost. We are free, moral agents with the capacity to accept or reject G-d's commandments. Predestination or fore ordination is what G-d did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Messiah Yeshua. (Rom. 2:3-11)