Alright, I've put it off, so that I could give it more thought and prayer. And I've decided that this really does warrant its own thread. Certain falsehoods are being spread about me, chief among which is that I hate G-d. It's quite an inflammatory remark, but I think that was the idea. Before I get to the quotes, I want to thank brother DHFan and brother Brandon for coming to my defense. We don't have to agree on every doctrinal point to recognize one another as brethren, or at LEAST act like we have respect for one another. It is always encouraging to see that some recognize this. Monergism- [quote]You hate Scripture and therefore hate God. [/quote] DHFan- [quote]Ack... Romans 14:1-5; 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. Romans 14: 10-12; 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Don't be too quick to pass judgement. These are the kinds of statements that lead me to believe that you are rather arrogant, Charlie, and I would prefer not to pass judgements like that. I know the verse does not specifically refer to the exact matter at hand, but none of us are in any place to pass judgements on another.[/quote] JustVisiting- [quote]There you go again. Honestly, mate, is it really THAT HARD to have a debate without insulting people? Mat doesn't hate Scripture. Far from it. And to say he hates G-d is one of the highest insults. Mat loves G-d deeper than you could ever imagine. His love for G-d is so deep that it astounds me every time I talk to him. Where's Christ's love, huh? Mat shows it to you. I see Christ in Mat all the time. But in you? Its hard to see. Because you judge people horridly if they disagree with you. You make statements about them such as they hate G-d, like you just did. Or they hate Scripture. You know what the Scriptures say? If you have a problem with him, first take it to him privately. If he refuses to listen, bring in a witness. And if he still refuses to listen, bring him before the Body. So before making foolish, arrogant assumptions, LISTEN. That's your problem. Not too long ago in another thread, you asked people to at least try to understand your beliefs before opposing them, and that you do the same for them. But that's rubbish. You obviously don't understand Mat's beliefs if you say that he hates not only Scripture but also G-d. Goodbye[/quote] Monergism- [quote]Look, those Scriptures are about brethren, for one. Not about a believer with an unbeliever. For two, Christ Himself gives a way you can KNOW whether a person is a Christian or not. As does John in 1 John. As does Paul, over and over. So why would they give us these tests if we're not to use them? It's like you're suggesting that we shouldn't have discernment at all.[/quote] [quote]I understand fully the situation. Mat denies Christ as God, yes? I have heard him say as much. Mat denies Paul's writings as Scripture, yes? I have heard him say as much. Mat denies the triune nature of God, yes? I have heard him say as much. Ok. Take those three, put them together, and now use logic. Christ says the Father wishes worshipers who worship in Spirit and in TRUTH. He also says that He IS the truth, and that without Him no man comes to the Father. Thus, without accepting Christ as LORD, the true LORD, the TRUE Messiah, you cannot know the Father. Now here's where logic comes in. Without the Father, and without the true Christ, what is a person? Lost. Now, what is true of a lost man? He HATES God. Soooooo, using simply a chain of logic and Scripture... I can indeed say that he hates God. He may not think so. *shrug* Scripture vs Mat....Scripture wins.[/quote]

Goodness. Two pages. Alright, before I go reading all that, I want to finish the opening post, and explain why I do think that we need to talk about this stuff. My initial thought was that I should have no love for myself, or my own reputation, and thus should just let it go, forgive my brother and move on. What changed my mind is the realization of how common a phenomenon this really is, and the larger issues it can cause. It's not about Charlie and I. It's about being good servants, about following the Way of the Master. This topic ties into both how we are to treat our brethren, and how we are to treat our neighbor. It is a deeply ingrained part of Christian culture, it seems, to draw lines in the sand and see who ends up on what side of them. Messiah, on the other hand, had love both for those who love and honored G-d, and for those that didn't. This was in keeping with the instruction from Torah to "Love your neighbor as yourself." This begs the question, WHO is our neighbor? But we can see who He considered His neighbor. He was regularly seen eating with publicans, tax collectors, Roman officials.. He came to the defense of a woman accused of adultery, an activity which many of us would be quite judgemental of. Why did he do this, and yet we prefer to "stick to our own kind" ? We have many reasons. Some fear for the younger brethren (younger in the Spirit), that they will be led astray by keeping bad company. Some fear for their own reputations, that they will be judged (as Messiah was) for the company they keep. Yet Jesus reminded us that it is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. Yet, what are we doing for the kingdom if we approach those we perceive to be "sick" and simply accuse them of being unwell, instead of showing them in love how they may be better? This, brethren, is the biggest problem I have with the material quoted in post 1. Not the statements made, but the tone and the lack of concern for those people perceived to be different, outside the body. If I truly were outside the body of Christ, does anyone imagine that by being told I hate G-d, that I would repent, based on such a judgemental attitude? I do always try to see things from another person's perspective. Charlie sees me as being lost. The material quoted in post 1, then, can be said to be his approach to reaching the lost. What say you, mypraizers? What is the proper way to deal with the lost?

Post edited by: MattBob_SquarePants, at: 2007/07/31 05:38