[quote] But just for arguments sake... are you suggesting that one who smokes pot is condemned to hell? or that they couldn't make a scripturally backed argument beyond the comprehension of someone who instead "drinks coffee" (oh the HUMANITY!)...[/quote] Because the topic of pot vs smarts came up: http://66.147.244.155/~thisisy3/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Slide231.jpg This brain can't beat the normal brain. Then again, we look at the caffeine abused brain: http://www.impactlab.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/caffeine-brain.jpg Vs the normal brain:http://www.impactlab.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/normal-brain.jpg So technically, those two fighting about which is better or which is worse is a lose-lose situation. Both, frankly, are doomed. Not that that has anything to do with this thread. I just thought I'd speak up on that because I'm super tired of the "Which one is healthier/I'm not hurting myself at all" argument...

"As to John 14:6, you didn't really prove that there is a rapture in that text" I didn't attempt to prove that there is a rapture, only that the notion of rapture does have basis in scripture, and isn't completely missing from scripture as is the changing of the sabbath (except in daniel). Rapture was not the focus of the discussion, merely something you brought up to apparently prove that traditions which directly contradict scripture (or in your argument that are merely missing from scripture) are perfectly good traditions to uphold. "I also brought up Hebrews (which, strangely, you never dealt with)" yes you mentioned the book of Hebrews, however without adequate reference (ie at least a chapter if not a verse as well) it's pretty hard to argue a whole book. To discuss scriptural validity one must have a point of reference to go by. "both true doctrines" If both are true doctrines why is it that one directly contradicts scripture, and the other I have established (and not been countered) is not being practiced in the manner in which it was practiced in scripture (including by the messiah himself who was not baptized as a baby but as an adult who had come of age and made the decision to be baptized despite that he obviously didn't *need* to be). "It has to do with inherited guilt from Adam" Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. So you're suggesting that the children would be put to death (albeit eternal death, not merely the temporary death of the flesh) for the sins of the fathers if they were not baptized while too young to remember it? I wonder then how EliYahu ascended into heaven, given his obvious inheritance of Adam's sin, and lack of baptism. "And you completely missed my point." Au contrere mon frere... I see your point but I reject it. People all across time have misused scripture to justify the initiation of traditions which are not actually compatible with scripture. Once upon a time people used scripture to justify the creation of a tradition of murdering nonbelievers and "heretics", is this something that you could also use to present your point that the Sabbath changes despite the fact that the messiah never commanded such a change? Or how about slavery in America? This was also something people taught from scriptures, to justify their mistreatment of others, which is clearly contrary to scripture. Why not bring up these points in your argument that scriptural validity is irrelevant to "religious" traditions? They're about as valid... or at least they were at the time they were being presented to people ignorant of the fallacy. "But to say that he "brought more to faith" through his music is an absurd claim, unless you're talking about some other faith than the one of the Scriptures. God speaks in Romans 10 through Paul, saying that none come to the faith apart from the hearing of the Word of Christ through the preaching of the gospel." If you like you some Bob Marley then you should well know that around half of his songs either quote scripture or suggest attention be paid to God (a far bigger portion than the relatively insignificant amount which reference smoking, although I'll admit pop culture has turned him into some hardcore pot activist and forgotten his religious roots, to the point that I once sat in someone's house who had a Bob Marley poster on the wall and who surprisingly claimed that "religion was just men showing off", ironic huh?). So according to your example from Paul, my statement about him bringing more to faith is validated.... feel free to search lyrics to bob marley songs if you don't believe me.... it should be noted that while I have heard a great many bob marley songs I can't guarantee I've heard all of them, so the estimate of half may be off somewhat, but certainly scripture was the driving force in his writing of lyrics for many of his songs. You will certainly see what I mean, even if my estimate is a slim margin off.... I'm not claiming him to be perfect, but to sarcastically say "(no doubt a credible philosopher, historian, and Christian thinker)" simply because I quoted his religiously inspired lyrics makes me wonder what you would've responded had I quoted someone who wasn't christian like Gandhi or Albert Einstein... Lastly I will say, bring forth your counter points to my argument about the Sabbath if you will, I will attempt to convince you by arguing from scripture... but if your entire argument comes from the teachings of people, and in contradiction to the scriptures then I don't see how I can contest it.... people can believe whatever they want.... some believe God speaks through scripture, others believe scripture is now null and void, others believe scripture has never been valid. I believe in scripture, as I believe the majority of people on this site also believe. I believe the messiah knew what he meant when he said 1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. in what way can we try the spirits to see if they are of God, if not by seeing if it lines up with the scriptures God has left us to know him by? By all means if you have a better method let me know.... in the case of the Sabbath, it actually does line up with scripture... Daniel let us know it would happen, although this change contradicts scripture as do many traditions that have been passed to us. "I'm super tired of the "Which one is healthier/I'm not hurting myself at all" argument... " My point wasn't whether it was healthy or not, but whether smoking it either A. condemns you to hell, or B. makes one *unable* to make valid points from scripture (as I see it these are the only 2 points which could potentially invalidate my argument by bringing it up). I would like to add I *have* smoked pot, and while I don't consider it a sin to do so, I have quit smoking all the same. That said.... condemn me if you will. I have scripture backing my argument, so no amount of irrelevant topics brought up to defame the messenger will counter the truth being presented. I'll admit, even if I convince *you* that the Sabbath has in fact never changed (for one not given authority to change God's will can't change God's will, even if he can convince the whole earth otherwise), you'd be hard pressed to convince your particular denomination to change the day you get together.... for even if you argue from scripture, you won't likely be heard.... it seems relevant to say, he who has ears let him hear.