.. my brethren who believe themselves above following our Father's rules? Once, a pair of twins came of age, one of whom had listened to his elders, and gained wisdom, and the other who still holds bitterness towards the correction of his father. "These instructions and rules were for another time" the second says, "and being now an adult, I am no longer subject to his rules." Yes, it's true, a father can not enforce his rules on his children once they are out of his house. But if he is a GOOD father, like our heavenly Father, the son who has gained wisdom will realize that the rules were for his own good, and will not stray far from them. He knows he doesn't HAVE to go to bed at a certain time anymore, but if he expects to hold a job, he must still go to bed at a reasonable hour on SOME kind of schedule. He doesn't HAVE to eat all his vegetables anymore, but his general health will be affected by his diet. He doesn't HAVE to show respect to people, but it will be better for him if he does. Yes, I say that every one who turns his back on his Father's commands, saying that they are not for HIM/HER, and not for OUR time, is like the rebellious son, who does not appreciate the love shown to the children THROUGH those rules, who somehow sincerely believes that his father made up a bunch of rules that were NOT in his best interest... as if his father simply liked to torment him.

[b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote].. my brethren who believe themselves above following our Father's rules? Once, a pair of twins came of age, one of whom had listened to his elders, and gained wisdom, and the other who still holds bitterness towards the correction of his father. "These instructions and rules were for another time" the second says, "and being now an adult, I am no longer subject to his rules." Yes, it's true, a father can not enforce his rules on his children once they are out of his house. But if he is a GOOD father, like our heavenly Father, the son who has gained wisdom will realize that the rules were for his own good, and will not stray far from them. He knows he doesn't HAVE to go to bed at a certain time anymore, but if he expects to hold a job, he must still go to bed at a reasonable hour on SOME kind of schedule. He doesn't HAVE to eat all his vegetables anymore, but his general health will be affected by his diet. He doesn't HAVE to show respect to people, but it will be better for him if he does. Yes, I say that every one who turns his back on his Father's commands, saying that they are not for HIM/HER, and not for OUR time, is like the rebellious son, who does not appreciate the love shown to the children THROUGH those rules, who somehow sincerely believes that his father made up a bunch of rules that were NOT in his best interest... as if his father simply liked to torment him.[/quote] That is a wonderful example... If the Father has always brought up the child with the rule of be in bed by 9:00, then it would be unwise of that child to ignor his fathers teaching when he becomes an adult. BUT does this mean that when he is an adult he goes to bed at 9:00 every night? NO! I means he has matured to the point where he understands WHY his loving father set that rule! That may mean that when he becomes an adult, he goes to bet earlier if he has a job that starts at 4:30 in the morning, or maybe it means going to bed later if his job ends at 12:00 midnight. The point the father was saying was not go to bed at 9:00, but rather, get enough sleep for your own health!

And your extension of the analogy would work fine, if Christians really and truly understood that these rules are for our own good.. But I don't think they do. I don't think they really try to, most of them anyway. They read the Torah, as I think you yourself have stated, as a different covenant for a different people, in a different time. We aren't arguing about whether sausage containing pork is okay, we have people that see no problems, and want to limitations at all on their consumption of it, despite G-d's Word to the contrary. We aren't arguing whether it's okay to miss the Sabbath or a hioliday, if it means the difference in keeping one's job or not, we have a group of people that has altogether forsaken G-d's Shabbat and holy days, for those of their own making, which also DIVIDES G-d's house. And of course, we know that Messiah told us a house divided cannot stand. Yes, I agee, we would not have to "preach the Torah" the same way, and could leave it to individual conscience, if the body of Christ DID truly internalize all those rules as being put there over us all, FOR OUR OWN GOOD. Barry's recently mentioned his beard that he's growing. I didn't bug him about it. I don't know that anyone did. Because I know that the Spirit in working in him, that he does recognize G-d's laws as being there for a reason, by a loving G-d who wants what is best for Barry, I could have faith that G-d would lay on his heart, what He wanted from Barry. It's a different matter entirely, with people that don't recognize the authority G-d's Word has over us at all.

[b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]And your extension of the analogy would work fine, if Christians really and truly understood that these rules are for our own good.. But I don't think they do. I don't think they really try to, most of them anyway. They read the Torah, as I think you yourself have stated, as a different covenant for a different people, in a different time. We aren't arguing about whether sausage containing pork is okay, we have people that see no problems, and want to limitations at all on their consumption of it, despite G-d's Word to the contrary. We aren't arguing whether it's okay to miss the Sabbath or a hioliday, if it means the difference in keeping one's job or not, we have a group of people that has altogether forsaken G-d's Shabbat and holy days, for those of their own making, which also DIVIDES G-d's house. And of course, we know that Messiah told us a house divided cannot stand. Yes, I agee, we would not have to "preach the Torah" the same way, and could leave it to individual conscience, if the body of Christ DID truly internalize all those rules as being put there over us all, FOR OUR OWN GOOD. Barry's recently mentioned his beard that he's growing. I didn't bug him about it. I don't know that anyone did. Because I know that the Spirit in working in him, that he does recognize G-d's laws as being there for a reason, by a loving G-d who wants what is best for Barry, I could have faith that G-d would lay on his heart, what He wanted from Barry. It's a different matter entirely, with people that don't recognize the authority G-d's Word has over us at all.[/quote] I'm not arguing the authority of the Law, or whether we should follow it or scrap it. I'm saying that we should look deeper rather than saying oh I can't eat pork because the Law says I can't. Doing that is like going to sleep at 9:00 the rest of your life. Sure it won't hurt, but it would be MORE usefull to understand the why, and put that into practice rather than the actual Law. In the case of pork, I would say, eat healthy. Don't eat crap. Take care of the body God gave you. That is what I follow. The Isrealites didnt have soda or anything like that, so their are no rules about it. It would be pointless to gorge yourself in soda and not eat pork. You are missing the heart of the Law if you do this. The heart of the pork Law is take care of your body.

[b]Swinny89 wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]And your extension of the analogy would work fine, if Christians really and truly understood that these rules are for our own good.. But I don't think they do. I don't think they really try to, most of them anyway. They read the Torah, as I think you yourself have stated, as a different covenant for a different people, in a different time. We aren't arguing about whether sausage containing pork is okay, we have people that see no problems, and want to limitations at all on their consumption of it, despite G-d's Word to the contrary. We aren't arguing whether it's okay to miss the Sabbath or a hioliday, if it means the difference in keeping one's job or not, we have a group of people that has altogether forsaken G-d's Shabbat and holy days, for those of their own making, which also DIVIDES G-d's house. And of course, we know that Messiah told us a house divided cannot stand. Yes, I agee, we would not have to "preach the Torah" the same way, and could leave it to individual conscience, if the body of Christ DID truly internalize all those rules as being put there over us all, FOR OUR OWN GOOD. Barry's recently mentioned his beard that he's growing. I didn't bug him about it. I don't know that anyone did. Because I know that the Spirit in working in him, that he does recognize G-d's laws as being there for a reason, by a loving G-d who wants what is best for Barry, I could have faith that G-d would lay on his heart, what He wanted from Barry. It's a different matter entirely, with people that don't recognize the authority G-d's Word has over us at all.[/quote] I'm not arguing the authority of the Law, or whether we should follow it or scrap it. I'm saying that we should look deeper rather than saying oh I can't eat pork because the Law says I can't. Doing that is like going to sleep at 9:00 the rest of your life. Sure it won't hurt, but it would be MORE usefull to understand the why, and put that into practice rather than the actual Law. In the case of pork, I would say, eat healthy. Don't eat crap. Take care of the body God gave you. That is what I follow. The Isrealites didnt have soda or anything like that, so their are no rules about it. It would be pointless to gorge yourself in soda and not eat pork. You are missing the heart of the Law if you do this. The heart of the pork Law is take care of your body.[/quote] Oh, you're almost there! But Messiah never told his people "Look, Torah says this, but we're going to ignore that and do this other thing that's keeping with the SPIRIT of the law." No! He said to do as the Torah says, and THEN take it a step further. In other words, keep the soda to a minimum AND refrain from pork!

[b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote][b]Swinny89 wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]And your extension of the analogy would work fine, if Christians really and truly understood that these rules are for our own good.. But I don't think they do. I don't think they really try to, most of them anyway. They read the Torah, as I think you yourself have stated, as a different covenant for a different people, in a different time. We aren't arguing about whether sausage containing pork is okay, we have people that see no problems, and want to limitations at all on their consumption of it, despite G-d's Word to the contrary. We aren't arguing whether it's okay to miss the Sabbath or a hioliday, if it means the difference in keeping one's job or not, we have a group of people that has altogether forsaken G-d's Shabbat and holy days, for those of their own making, which also DIVIDES G-d's house. And of course, we know that Messiah told us a house divided cannot stand. Yes, I agee, we would not have to "preach the Torah" the same way, and could leave it to individual conscience, if the body of Christ DID truly internalize all those rules as being put there over us all, FOR OUR OWN GOOD. Barry's recently mentioned his beard that he's growing. I didn't bug him about it. I don't know that anyone did. Because I know that the Spirit in working in him, that he does recognize G-d's laws as being there for a reason, by a loving G-d who wants what is best for Barry, I could have faith that G-d would lay on his heart, what He wanted from Barry. It's a different matter entirely, with people that don't recognize the authority G-d's Word has over us at all.[/quote] I'm not arguing the authority of the Law, or whether we should follow it or scrap it. I'm saying that we should look deeper rather than saying oh I can't eat pork because the Law says I can't. Doing that is like going to sleep at 9:00 the rest of your life. Sure it won't hurt, but it would be MORE usefull to understand the why, and put that into practice rather than the actual Law. In the case of pork, I would say, eat healthy. Don't eat crap. Take care of the body God gave you. That is what I follow. The Isrealites didnt have soda or anything like that, so their are no rules about it. It would be pointless to gorge yourself in soda and not eat pork. You are missing the heart of the Law if you do this. The heart of the pork Law is take care of your body.[/quote] Oh, you're almost there! But Messiah never told his people "Look, Torah says this, but we're going to ignore that and do this other thing that's keeping with the SPIRIT of the law." No! He said to do as the Torah says, and THEN take it a step further. In other words, keep the soda to a minimum AND refrain from pork![/quote] Hmm... Let me ponder on this for a while...