[b]Genesis 3:20-24 -“The man called his wife Havah [life], because she was the mother of all living. ADONAI, G-d, made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. ADONAI, G-d, said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, to prevent his putting out his hand and taking also from the tree of life, eating, and living forever.’ therefore ADONAI, G-d, sent him out of the garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So he drove the man out, and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the k'ruvim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."[/b] So, in Genesis, G-d says that men would live forever if they eat from the tree of life. This is the first reference to eternal life, in the scriptures. Let’s look some more to see if there are any other ways to have eternal life: [b]Deuteronomy 4:39-40 - "Know today, and establish it in your heart, that ADONAI is G-d in heaven above and on earth below - there is no other. Therefore, you are to keep his laws and mitzvot which I am giving you today, so that it will go well with you and with your children after you, and so that you will prolong your days in the land ADONAI your G-d is giving you forever."[/b] This passage seems to say that you can live forever by keeping the commands and decrees of G-d. Let us try to confirm this from another passage: [b]Ezekiel 20:10-13 - "So I had them leave the land of Egypt and brought them into the desert. I gave them my laws and showed them my rulings; if a person obeys them, he will have life through them. I gave them my Shabbats as a sign between me and them, so that they would know that I, ADONAI, am the one who makes them holy. 'But the house of Isra'el rebelled against me in the desert. They did not live by my laws; and they rejected my rulings, which, if a person does, he will have life through them; moreover, they greatly profaned my Shabbats. Then I said I would pour out my fury on them in the desert, in order to destroy them.'"[/b] Ezekiel never comes right out and calls it eternal life, but, it is obvious that the way to live is through the commands of G-d. This life is different than what the wicked do when they walk and breathe. The wicked do not live like the righteous. The only difference must be in how long they live. Also I will hear the christian say “that was for the Jews” Let us look at Yeshua’s words to make this point clear. [b]Matthew 19:16-17 - "A man approached Yeshua and said, ‘Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life?’ He said to him, 'Why are you asking me about good? There is One who is good! But if you want to obtain eternal life, observe the mitzvot.'" Mark 10:17-19 - "As he was starting on his way, a man ran up, kneeled down in front of him and asked, -Good rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?' Yeshua said to him, 'Why are you calling me good? No one is good except G-d! You know the mitzvot'" Luke 10:25-28 - "An expert in Torah stood up to try and trap him by asking, 'Rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?' But Yeshua said to him, 'What is written in the Torah? How do you read it?' He answered, 'You are to love ADONAI your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your understanding; and your neighbor as yourself.' 'That's the right answer," Yeshua said. 'Do this, and you will have life.'"[/b] So, the second way to live forever is to obey the commands of G-d. By obeying Torah we inherit eternal life. If a Jewish person were to stand up in a christian church and ask the question, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" The pastor would gladly invite the Jew up to the stage and tell him how stupid Jews are for not seeing G-d is three instead of one and have him bow and say the "sinner’s prayer." Funny that the Messiah never said such a thing but each time said to obey Torah. Lets look now, at a third way to live forever: [b]John 6:43-51 - "Yeshua answered them, 'Stop grumbling to each other! No one can come to me unless the Father -- the One who sent me -- draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day. It is written in the Prophets, `They will all be taught by ADONAI. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from G-d -- he has seen the Father. Yes, indeed! I tell you, whoever trusts has eternal life: I am the bread which is life. Your fathers ate the man in the desert; they died. But the bread that comes down from heaven is such that a person may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that has come down from heaven; if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever.'"[/b] So we can see that another way to live forever is to eat of the Bread from Heaven. Yeshua is obviously The Bread from Heaven. This is clarified in: [b]John 3:10-17 - "Yeshua answered him, 'You hold the office of teacher in Isra'el, and you don't know this? Yes, indeed! I tell you that what we speak about, we know; and what we give evidence of, we have seen; but you people don't accept our evidence! If you people don't believe me when I tell you about the things of the world, how will you believe me when I tell you about the things of heaven? No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. Just as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life. For G-d so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed. For G-d did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but rather so that through him, the world might be saved.’”[/b] Clearly we can see a third way to live forever involves believing in the Son of G-d. This third way is described, repeatedly, throughout the scriptures, in various ways. They all boil down to faith in Messiah, G-d's word, His Torah. Let us summarize the methods, used by G-d and described in His scriptures, for obtaining eternal life: 1. Eat from the Tree of Life. 2. Obey the commands of G-d. 3. Believe in the Son of G-d. These three ways to live forever are all clearly spelled out in the Scripture, yet there is a problem. Let us look at the problem: [b]John 14:6 - "Yeshua said, "I AM the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me."[/b] Yeshua seems to be saying that there is only one way to life and it is through Him. Yet, we have already seen that there are clearly three ways to live forever. How do we resolve this? Proverbs puts all three of these together: [b]Proverbs 3:13-20 - "Happy the person who finds wisdom, the person who acquires understanding; for her profit exceeds that of silver, gaining her is better than gold, she is more precious than pearls -nothing you want can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand, riches and honor in her left. Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who grasp her; whoever holds fast to her will be made happy. ADONAI by wisdom founded the earth, by understanding he established the heavens, by his knowledge the deep [springs] burst open and the dew condenses from the sky."[/b] The above passage is read, in the synagogue, when the Torah scroll is returned to the ark. When we say this, we agree that the ultimate wisdom is Torah. This passage shows that through Torah the world was created and is the Tree of life. So, the Tree of Life, the Torah, and Yeshua are all the same entity. Yeshua must be the Tree of Life. Yeshua must be the Torah. Yeshua is THE way and THE truth and THE life! This has profound implications for the believer today. It means that we must obey all of G-d's commands in the Torah or we will, in effect, be discarding a part of Yeshua. It means that if we make a distinction between the laws of G-d that we must obey and those that we don't have to obey, that we must somehow believe in part of Yeshua and not in all of Him. This does not work! Just as Yeshua is a single entity, so also is the Torah a single entity. We can not divide the commands of God anymore than we can divide the body of Messiah. We either obey all of the Torah or we have rejected Messiah. As a Jew, you can not separate Torah from the Son. As a Gentile, you can not separate the Son from Torah.

WOW! I'm blown away. This is some great, great stuff.. Some good solid, research on a topic I've had issues with, and couldn't quite put my finger on. Great work, brother Barry! Thanks for sharing!

That last part confuses me... [quote]This has profound implications for the believer today. It means that we must obey all of G-d's commands in the Torah or we will, in effect, be discarding a part of Yeshua. It means that if we make a distinction between the laws of G-d that we must obey and those that we don't have to obey, that we must somehow believe in part of Yeshua and not in all of Him. This does not work! Just as Yeshua is a single entity, so also is the Torah a single entity. We can not divide the commands of God anymore than we can divide the body of Messiah. We either obey all of the Torah or we have rejected Messiah.[/quote]Are you saying that if someone makes a mistake in following the Torah, they've lost their salvation and eternal life?

[b]barry wrote:[/b] [quote] This has profound implications for the believer today. It means that we must obey all of G-d's commands in the Torah or we will, in effect, be discarding a part of Yeshua. It means that if we make a distinction between the laws of G-d that we must obey and those that we don't have to obey, that we must somehow believe in part of Yeshua and not in all of Him. This does not work! Just as Yeshua is a single entity, so also is the Torah a single entity. We can not divide the commands of God anymore than we can divide the body of Messiah. We either obey all of the Torah or we have rejected Messiah. As a Jew, you can not separate Torah from the Son. As a Gentile, you can not separate the Son from Torah.[/quote] The basis of Christ's salvation for us is that it was a [i]substitutionary[/i] death. In other words He took our sin for us and gave us His righteousness. he died for our sins and failure to follow the Law. We live because of His good works and complete following of the Law. This is how He fulfilled the Law. (Matthew 5:17). So it is rejecting the Messiah and His substitutionary death to say that we must keep all of the Torah.

I do not read the KJV of Scripture anymore. In it you can read: [b]2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) - “Study to show thyself approved unto G-d.”[/b] Well, I was all over that. Hey, I am a good student. Can I study? You bet I can study. “Study to show thyself approved unto G-d.” I am all over that. I am totally there. I look at people who are academically challenged because it is not their ministry. Their ministry is in ministries of mercy, ministries of compassion, ministries of art, or ministries of music. Maybe they are not as good at studying. Heaven forbid I should actually think they were not called to study all the time like I am. See, if I had a paradigm in my mind that study is the way to be approved unto G-d then it is real simple; and furthermore, it makes it real easy for me to critique other people. I can see whether they are studying or not and decide whether they are approved unto G-d. I did just that! I am glad that I moved on from there, but I lived in this paradigm of “study to show thyself approved…” Therefore, whether you were approved unto G-d or not had to do with how much you knew and whether your doctrine was right. The NIV reads: [b]2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV) "Do your best to present yourself to G-d as one approved."[/b] [b]Another version says “Do all you can to present yourself to G-d as someone worthy of his approval”[/b] Wow, that is totally different than “study.” You see, the Greek word “[i]spudoso[/i]” does not mean “[i]study[/i].” It means “[i]to apply a diligent effort[/i].” You could say, “[i]Make a diligent effort to present yourself approved unto G-d[/i].” Why does the King James Version say the word study? It says that because in 1611 when only 10% of the population could read you studied by being a disciple. A silver smith in 1611 did not become a silver smith by reading books. They “[i]studied[/i],” that is to say that they apprenticed with a silver smith. He would have them first build the right kind of fire. They might spend a year learning how to build it right. Then, they learn to melt the silver to the right temperature. A period of study occurred that might have gone on for years. Today, sometimes we call that understudy. In 1611, it is very important that you understand that at that time “[i]study[/i]” did not mean “[i]read[/i].” It meant to understudy and make a diligent effort when you understudy the person. The translation here of “[i]do your best or make a diligent effort to present yourself to one as G-d approved[/i],” is what G-d is looking for us to do. In Revelation, it talks about wanting us hot or cold; He does not want us lukewarm. He wants us to make a diligent effort. You will not find G-d's approval by believing His word does not apply to you. He wants your best effort. Yes, His son paid the penalty for our failure but this will never mean "[i]you cant so dont try[/i]." The word fulfill in Greek is plhro/w, tranliteraed as Pleroo, and defined as: to fulfill, i.e. to cause G-d's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be. Yeshua death paid the penalty for sin which is death. He did not die for man to contiue in sin. He lived to show us how and died so that we could.

Deuteronomy 4:39-40 - "Know today, and establish it in your heart, that ADONAI is G-d in heaven above and on earth below - there is no other. Therefore, you are to keep his laws and mitzvot which I am giving you today, so that it will go well with you and with your children after you, and so that you will prolong your days in the land ADONAI your G-d is giving you forever." Ok so Barry is misinterpreting this verse badly. It says so you can prolong your days in the land the LORD has given you forever. God is talking to the people of Israel in general. So he wants for the Israelites to obey them so the people of Israel can prolong their days in the land. Not the specific, individual people, but the whole tribe in general. A.K.A. The present tribe and their descendants. So basically God is saying obey me and your descendants will be in this land forever. By no means does this imply eternal life. Oh and if we could obtain salvation through following the Law, then there would have been no point for Jesus' sacrifice.

How about this for an answer: [color=#FF0000]"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have [u][i][b]EVERLASTING LIFE!!!!!!!!!"[/b][/i][/u][/color] -John 3:16 Thats all folks. [IMG]http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/dramize/images.jpg[/IMG]

Brandon, you have yet to answer my question. Yes, Barry said this, but you agreed with his post. Now please, answer my question. PLEASE! I want to see what messianics say of the topic.

So I guess no one wants to answer my question...? *Sigh* Whatever... I almost agree with you entirely Junkie... There are parts of the Law that do not have to be followed because of Jesus (Sacrifices and such)... but I have said this before and people get over me, so Ill prepare for the onslaught...

I've been trying to say this for weeks now... GOOD JOB *high Five* :laugh: