[b]defiant_revolutionary wrote:[/b] [quote]Ok a question. If God is predetermining things then why give Torah for instructions? why bother giving instructions if you know who will and who won't accept them [/quote] That is like saying, why tell a disobedient child what to do if you know they aren't going to obey. You know that they aren't going to do what you say but you say it anyway. We are not puppets, God hasn't planed out every single movement of our lives, [quote]Furthermore there would really be no righteous or wicked, because no one had a choice in the matter[/quote] A coin has two sides, I don't have a choice to have a coin with two sides and even though it will always have 2 sides we can say it has two sides. [quote]The instructions say clearly that there are righteous and there are wicked.... so then the instructions would be lying because only God (the decision maker) can be righteous or wicked.[/quote] A sinner commits a sin, they are still a sinner though even though everyone sins. saying that someone isn't something if they don't choose it makes no sense. [quote]in order for it to be our fault it means we had the free will to fault... and if we have the free will to fault we have the free will to be correct[/quote] Predestination mean the predetermination of salvation, not every single action we do.

[b]JxC90 wrote:[/b] [quote][b]defiant_revolutionary wrote:[/b] [quote]Ok a question. If God is predetermining things then why give Torah for instructions? why bother giving instructions if you know who will and who won't accept them [/quote] That is like saying, why tell a disobedient child what to do if you know they aren't going to obey. You know that they aren't going to do what you say but you say it anyway. We are not puppets, God hasn't planed out every single movement of our lives, [quote]Furthermore there would really be no righteous or wicked, because no one had a choice in the matter[/quote] A coin has two sides, I don't have a choice to have a coin with two sides and even though it will always have 2 sides we can say it has two sides. [quote]The instructions say clearly that there are righteous and there are wicked.... so then the instructions would be lying because only God (the decision maker) can be righteous or wicked.[/quote] A sinner commits a sin, they are still a sinner though even though everyone sins. saying that someone isn't something if they don't choose it makes no sense. [quote]in order for it to be our fault it means we had the free will to fault... and if we have the free will to fault we have the free will to be correct[/quote] Predestination mean the predetermination of salvation, not every single action we do.[/quote] Your definition of Calvinism certainly isn't the most popular one. :) Honestly, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile free will and predestination, as either term is binary. I would offer alternation answers, but they would end up a bit long and I'm currently posting from my phone. Perhaps when I get home I can make a more thorough post. Rest assured, Chris, that your concerns can be reconciled with Calvinism.

"That is like saying, why tell a disobedient child what to do if you know they aren't going to obey. You know that they aren't going to do what you say but you say it anyway. We are not puppets, God hasn't planed out every single movement of our lives," If a parent tells a disobedient child what to do... it is only because the parent knows and understands that the child has the free will to either follow or not follow the instructions and they want the child to follow them. If they don't have the free will to follow the instructions because they are "a disobedient child" which by definition means they will *not* obey what you tell them, then any repetition of instructions is useless (perhaps you could use reverse psychology but that's beside the point).... unless they have the free will to find correction and later be obedient (instead of disobedient which you have labeled them as, almost like predetermining their fate in your own judgment of them). If God hasn't planned out every single moment then you could be destined to find faith at some future date, but currently be completely lacking in it... choose to go down this road that you wind up getting killed on (because some person on that road didn't care about God's future plans for you)... and then what happened to your predestination? If God doesn't control you on the micro level then what makes you think he controls you on the macro level? The way I see it, either God gave us free will or he didn't.... predestination is contrary to free will.... what if I'm destined for hell but I *choose* heaven.... which supercedes which, the free will God gave me to choose, or God's predetermined fate for me? And if one supercedes the other then doesn't it make the other meaningless? ie if I choose heaven and work for heaven, but God already made up his mind I'm going to hell.... then what use is my free will to choose heaven? or if I can choose heaven though God made up his mind I'm going to hell, then it seems God made a mistake in predestining me for hell.... "A coin has two sides, I don't have a choice to have a coin with two sides and even though it will always have 2 sides we can say it has two sides." coin    /kɔɪn/ Show Spelled[koin] Show IPA –noun 1. a piece of metal stamped and issued by the authority of a government for use as money. 2. a number of such pieces. 3. Informal . money; cash: He's got plenty of coin in the bank. By definition then I think I could make a 3 sided coin or a 4 sided coin... it doesn't have to have 2 sides, unless you don't have free will to be creative..... and if you want to be technical every coin has 3 sides, but in the context of flipping, it is rare for it to land on it's 3rd side :P When one flips a coin, they put forth whatever amount of energy they choose in flipping the coin, but it is up to gravity and friction in collaboration with the energy you put into flipping it that will determine whether the coin falls on heads or tails. However if as you claim, God actually chooses heads or tails before flipping the coin, then it's neither the coin's, nor gravity's, nor friction, nor even the amount of energy God put into the coin that determines which side it will fall on, it will fall on whichever side he chose before hand, even if all the forces working on it say it should fall on the opposite side. However using a coin to discuss free will is practically irrelevant as a coin exerts no effort, no one is questioning whether or not a coin has free will..... it has none... people have free will is my argument, not that inanimate objects have free will... "A sinner commits a sin, they are still a sinner though even though everyone sins. saying that someone isn't something if they don't choose it makes no sense." So then take for instance if *I* vote democrat, but by no choice of my own my vote gets cast for the republican (because God predetermined that my vote would go republican perhaps).... am I none the less considered a republican? I didn't choose it.... but my vote was cast for them against my will..... by your response then yes I am, even though my vote was clearly marked for democrat (just an example)... ok so let's see some definitions here.... sin 1    /sɪn/ Show Spelled [sin] Show IPA noun, verb, sinned, sin·ning. –noun 1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam. 2. any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. 3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time. the sin of Adam, that's interesting... so Adam was made to live in the Garden of Eden right? God put everything together in such a way that Adam could live in Eden for eternity.... Adam *chose* to sin.... made a "willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle" or in this case commandment... not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So by your view Adam didn't make the willful choice to fall from Eden, but rather God chose Adam for that fate from the moment he created Adam.... even though that's contrary to what the bible says. So if that were the case then you couldn't blame Adam for falling from Eden, but could only blame God, because God's the one who made Adam to fall right? Had God made Adam without free will, or if God had predestined Adam to live in the Garden forever then there would've never been a fall.... oh wait... but what if God predestined Adam to live in the Garden forever, but didn't control his every move..... and one day Adam ate from the tree he wasn't supposed to.... it would seem that Adam overruled God's predestination....... that would seem even more careless than just giving him free will.... with free will man's responsible for his own fate.... but if God gave free will and also predestined him, then God would be giving man the means to overrule his predestination... doesn't seem likely that God would do that. Back to my point about instructions.... God gave Adam the instruction not to eat from the tree..... now why would God give Adam instructions not to eat from the tree if God could simply predestine that Adam either would or wouldn't eat from the tree.... if he would eat from the tree anyway (because God predestined him to) then there's no sense in telling him not to as God is the one deciding that he will eat from the tree. This is unlike the parent child comparison because a parent CANNOT predestine their child to one thing or another.... they can ENCOURAGE them... give them instructions... give them advice.... give them assistance.... give them any combination of reward and punishment to achieve the desired results.... but they can't predestine their child in the same sense that you claim God predestines humans. It makes sense that humans would give instructions because they can't make another human do something through predestination.... however if God can, then it does certainly seem irrelevant to give instructions to those whom you know won't follow them.... or even to those you know who will follow them.... because you are predestining them to either do it or not do it.... there's no need to give them more information (because they have no say over what they will do, they must do as they were predestined). Let's say I'm God and I've created a group of people for the sake of playing kickball.... their moves have been predestined, each one of them. Their moves are already set out even before they do it.... for what reason would God then need to explain to those people the rules of the game? Their moves are already set.... whether they follow the rules or not is irrelevant because God made their path, any of them who break the rules were forced to break those rules by God when he set their path before them. It would really be God's fault if any of them didn't follow the rules that he later gave them.... because God predestined them to that fate. It'd be like watching wrestling :) this guy gets all pissed and hollering in front of the camera after the fight (which was rigged from the start) not only did the creator of the wrestling show know what would happen, but also the actor pretending to be pissed at the results of the fight (which he knew before hand)..... I think God's a little more creative than that.... One more point... "A sinner commits a sin, they are still a sinner though even though everyone sins. saying that someone isn't something if they don't choose it makes no sense." Ok but a computer virus take for instance.... it has no free will of it's own. It does as it was programmed to do from the start. If your computer catches this computer virus is it the fault of the virus or the fault of the person who *created* the virus with the programming set to mess up your computer? You may well call the virus a virus because of the results of it's actions, but in reality a virus is a program just like any other program is a program.... the difference between a good program and a bad one is not an inherent value of the program itself, but of the will of the person who created it. Take for instance Stuxnet virus... it's a horrible despicable virus.... designed to mess up industrial infrastructure.... then injected into Iran's nuclear facility in order to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. It was made for a good reason though it's a virus.... and even if it doesn't fit your standard of what a good program should be... in the eyes of the programmer who created it it did exactly as it was intended to do. But none the less, you can't be mad at Stuxnet for doing as it was programmed... only at the programmer of Stuxnet for programming it in such a way..... the same could be said of God and sinners if God predestines people to sin. It's not the sinner's fault that they sin if God made them to sin.... it's only their fault if God made them to FOLLOW and they *chose* to sin.... Free will is necessary, unless you intend to blame God for all of man's mistakes.... I know it's (oddly enough) the athiest thing to do to try to blame God for everything man does wrong... but as a believer it would seem giving him the benefit of the doubt would be advantageous when we're also counting on God giving us the benefit of the doubt... "Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, [u][b]choose[/b][/u] you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

[b]defiant_revolutionary wrote:[/b] [quote]Furthermore there would really be no righteous or wicked, because no one had a choice in the matter[/quote] Your first point was about having the Law when He decided whether we were going to obey it or disobey it in the first place. You're absolutely right; God could have chosen to forgo this life altogether and just dump some people in hell and save others. But He didn't. He decided that He is made glorious through humanity being created in a state of depravity after the Fall thus emphasizing His own righteousness, and then His power and grace being manifesting through Him choosing to save some from eternal punishment. The question could honestly be asked, regardless of your stance on free will. I could simply rephrase it: "Why did God give us rules if He already knows whether we'll obey them or not?" That is, of course, unless you are contesting God's omniscience. ;) Anyways, back to the bit I quoted above. Paul actually addressed this very issue in Romans 9. Romans 9:19 ESV You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" Here, the Romans are asking why God's saying that they're sinners since His will is obviously irresistible, and the entire passage before verse 19 is emphasizing that He truly "has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills" (vs 18). Most people can't stomach Paul's answer to this dilemma, as it's asking the questioner to realize their place. Romans 9:20-24 ESV But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? And finally, as to your accusation of injustice on God's part, the Romans had a similar accusation. Paul talked about how God said that He had hated Esau and loved Jacob before they had even done anything. He had simply created one for destruction and one for honor. Paul continues the thought in verses 14 and 15 (ESV), "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'"

[quote]Your first point was about having the Law when He decided whether we were going to obey it or disobey it in the first place. You're absolutely right; God could have chosen to forgo this life altogether and just dump some people in hell and save others.[/quote] That is double predestination, which says that God puts people in hell while I adhere to the more biblical view that there is single predestination where God has chosen those to save and our depravity has put us in hell, by saying that God predestines people to hell is saying that we are not depraved, which the bible is strong on, I don't think anyone could biblically argue total depravity. [quote]The question could honestly be asked, regardless of your stance on free will. I could simply rephrase it: "Why did God give us rules if He already knows whether we'll obey them or not?" That is, of course, unless you are contesting God's omniscience.[/quote] Isn't saying that he didn't know that we were going to break them rules make His not omniscience. Ephesians 1:4-6 says that He chose us (1:4) (chosen in the original greek text is "eklegomai" which means to select) and that we have been predestined according to his will. (1:5) (predestined in greek is proorizo which means to limit in advance) 1:6 goes on to say that God has made us accepted...notice the wording, God has made us accepted, (Accepted is charitoo which means highly favoured, indue with special honour, one could interpret that as saved) This is something that proves that God Chooses us, even with the words that strongly put it across, they lay the way in the greek, so it isn't a mistranslation. The bible says that God planned our lives in advance (I Cor. 2:7) (planned is the same word as predestined in the greek) Why would he plan everything but salvation. [quote]has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills (vs 18)[/quote] Yes, true, he has mercy and hardens whomever he wants to, whomever is in his will, so if he can do that do whomever he wants then who is someone to say that he can, unless the person says no. [quote]Your definition of Calvinism certainly isn't the most popular one.[/quote] It is consistent with what Calvin taught on the issue of salvation, as well as what Augustine taught as well as what Paul taught. But what would you say would be a "popular" definition of Calvinism? [quote]If a parent tells a disobedient child what to do... it is only because the parent knows and understands that the child has the free will to either follow or not follow the instructions and they want the child to follow them.[/quote] Do you remain silence with a 1 month old does something wrong, it isn't old enough to understand what you are saying but you will still tell them anyway. The child and parent is a bad example anyway (I know I brang it up) We are talking about God, the creator and the saviour. [quote]By definition then I think I could make a 3 sided coin or a 4 sided coin... it doesn't have to have 2 sides,[/quote] How many of them have you come across in your life, of cause you could make one but I was talking about a normal coin in my example, not to mention that there are no countries with a coin with more than 2 sides, it would be inefficient to make. [quote]and if you want to be technical every coin has 3 sides[/quote] Nope 2 sides and an edge. [quote]the sin of Adam, that's interesting... so Adam was made to live in the Garden of Eden right? God put everything together in such a way that Adam could live in Eden for eternity.... Adam *chose* to sin.[/quote] Again you are missing out bits that I am saying to help your argument, I am just talking about salvation, we have a free will but it is filthy and can't choose good, and that is why we can't choose God. Your whole argument is as good as nothing because I didn't say that we do everything that God tells us to do, we don't, so that is why he saves us [quote]Honestly, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile free will and predestination, as either term is binary.[/quote] I have covered it before but predestination is God stepping in on something that our free will would refuse to accept, it is totally depraved, how could it choose something as wonderful, good and beautiful as God. If it is the cross that saves us and nothing else then isn't it nothing more than pure blasphemy to say that we must do something to give the cross it's power.

Judging by your replies to where you quoted me, I think you may have me confused with an Arminianist. ;) I believe in double predestination. You see, single predestination doesn't work in my mind for a few reasons, not the least of which is found in Ephesians. For the record, I believed in what I now recognize to be single predestination on my slope from Arminianist to full-fledged Calvinist, where I've now landed on double predestination. Ephesians 1:11 HCSB In Him we were also made His inheritance, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will. It seems pretty straight forward to me that God works out [i]everything[/i] in agreement with His will. As in, actively works out. See, with single predestination, we have the issue of "action by inaction". If God chooses to save some, then, whether actively or inactively, He effectively damns the rest, since, being omnipotent, He has within Him the power and ability to save everyone, but chooses not to. It's almost like single predestination admits to this side of God, but doesn't want to have to actually look at it.

I believe that the end result of predestination and double predestination has the same result, I am willing to accept both but I do believe that we all put our selves in hell, because of our depravity and God selects people that he is going to say, I think if we go to hell, then it is our fault, we put ourselves there but if we make it to heaven then that is working of God, the end result is the same but who puts us in hell is different. Both single and double predestination are consistent with what Calvin taught, I think single predestination showing more of our depravity because it is saying that God doesn't need to align us to hell, he belong there anyway and can get there ourselves but for salvation, that is where we need good. I can agree that He works it out but if He wanted everyone to go to hell then we wouldn't need to do a think, just let the people go without laying grace on their life and His justice send us to hell, I guess by there being either heaven or hell electing for one is kind of election for the other There is a vague difference and I think a blurry line between the two. [quote]I think you may have me confused with an Arminianist.[/quote] I probably did, sorry about that.

"The question could honestly be asked, regardless of your stance on free will. I could simply rephrase it: "Why did God give us rules if He already knows whether we'll obey them or not?" That is, of course, unless you are contesting God's omniscience. Isn't saying that he didn't know that we were going to break them rules make His not omniscience. " Giving "free will" to a certain type of his many many creations gives them *power* over themselves... so as to say God has power over you (and everything ), but gives you power over you.... to decide to whom you will trust the power over you.... so if you see it from that perspective.... the answer to your question to the best of my knowledge would be akin to say asking why does a teacher send a student home with a workbook or reading assignment.... so you will be prepared for the test of course.... if you chose not to study and failed the test then you can't blame the teacher who sent you home with the workbook just like everyone else..... God could've made it a lot more difficult than he did. The scriptures are practically everywhere.... but as it is written (paraphrasing) keep seeking and you will find, keep knocking and the door will be opened to you. So even had the scriptures been banned long ago (or should they be in the future ) you are nonetheless compelled to find and study them, if indeed God is what you seek. "The bible says that God planned our lives in advance (I Cor. 2:7) (planned is the same word as predestined in the greek) Why would he plan everything but salvation. " 1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: It doesn't say he planned our lives in advance there. This is saying God "ordained" before the world the hidden wisdom. This isn't contradicting free will. "Again you are missing out bits that I am saying to help your argument, I am just talking about salvation, we have a free will but it is filthy and can't choose good, and that is why we can't choose God. Your whole argument is as good as nothing because I didn't say that we do everything that God tells us to do, we don't, so that is why he saves us" I would challenge you to back up from scripture the phrase you said "we can't choose God." I disagree with that statement and again assert the evidence of there being scripture in existence to *encourage* us to choose God as evidence that not only is there a choice but that God wants us to choose to seek after him and his ways... though we obviously don't have to. If we *couldn't* choose good or *couldn't* choose God then all of us posters here on MyPraize who each individually have free will (whether or not they each wish to believe in it ) would necessarily by *compulsion* steer clear of any and all places like say... MyPraize... where people come and discuss God.... because you say we *can't* choose good or God with our God given free will.... we not only can choose good and choose God, but we can choose what good we *will* do specifically, and we can choose in what manner we will choose to serve God.... in the exact same sense that we can choose bad or the adversary. Whether you believe it or not there are those who not only choose bad but choose the adversary.... that being the case it is essential to recognize that you have the free will to choose good and God. In reference to the comments about election.... Just because God has the power to choose, doesn't mean that his choices are arbitrary. God is wise, so obviously his choices would be made with careful consideration to all the relevant information.... which is where his omniscience is useful.... as rather than at creating you having to decide "heaven or hell" and on the next one... he can see into his creation completely and see what actions it will take (of it's own free will) in life and through such knowledge determine "heaven or hell" based upon the free will decisions of his creations. Among the decisions one is to make freely in life is whether or not you will serve God freely... "I think if we go to hell, then it is our fault, we put ourselves there but if we make it to heaven then that is working of God" So we can choose to go to Hell, but we can't choose to go to heaven? If we have a choice (which I assure you we do), and we can't choose to go to heaven, then that means we can choose only hell. This is equivalent to saying we have no choice but hell.... which wouldn't really be choosing. Salvation is offered for those who make poor choices... but one must *choose* to be saved. I wonder the predicament it would be if God chose someone for salvation and that person thought they didn't have a choice to turn back and receive salvation, because someone can't choose heaven.... yet without choosing to receive salvation no one can be saved. Hell is certainly *a* choice.... but the choice you should be seeking is salvation. Some choices matter more than others.... Salvation is the choice that matters most. One can't choose salvation without choosing both good and God, as salvation is an expression of both. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Yes he works all things according to his will. But it is his will that man would have free will, this is proven by the fact that man does have free will and that many times we are urged to make this choice or that choice, some are even commanded. For instance trust, which you see mentioned in the following verse. Trust is a choice. Trust is not an automatic. When you were a baby you cried and cried unaware that you would be fed, changed, or whatever else you needed. You didn't trust, but over time you developed trust (hopefully) that what you need would be provided so as not to complain. When you took your first steps you were timid and uncertain whether you would be able to stand up... it took time to learn to trust yourself... and took more trust to be able to run or jump. Also for instance, if a complete stranger asks you to borrow your car to go down the street... however nice you may be, it's unlikely you *trust* him enough to do that... however if you meet this person and get more familiar with him it's possible that over time you will gain trust in him enough to allow him to borrow your car. However, trust is a choice that one makes. It is not inconceivable that one could *choose* not to trust someone with their car even if they've known them for a long time. The same can be said on the choice to "trust in Christ". If you did not make the choice to trust, you would not trust.... somewhere along the line you choose to trust, and all along the line you are allowed to choose *not* to trust or rather choose what to trust instead. It's true God makes the big choices, not us.... but we choose ourselves. We choose what we believe. We choose what actions we take in our lives... which includes the choice to serve God or not and the choice to follow his teachings. We choose to do good, or else by default we *do* no good... I guess you could incidentally do good without choosing to do good, for instance if you left some fries in the bottom of your fry box and from the dumpster they managed to make it to the hands of someone hungry enough to eat them. But that's not the same as actively choosing to do good, like say giving someone hungry food directly. If you don't actively choose to do good, then it's unlikely you would go out of your way to provide food for someone else. If you choose to seek God and his ways then such a choice would seem second nature... but it is still a choice. Bottom line... everything is choices.... choose God or don't... but don't pretend you have no choice, I think that could be perceived as being lukewarm.... having neither chose nor rejected him but rather undecided, depending on him not only to choose you first, but to be the only one choosing....

I like this defiant revolutionary person. :) The main point I have gotten out of what I have read so far is that it makes no sense to say God controls everything on the macro level, but nothing on the micro level. God has put boundaries on how far sin can go, but He cant call us good or evil if He is causing us to choose what we choose.

Calvinism starts from a faulty definition of what it means to be born dead in trespasses and sin. Calvinism defines this as an inability for any human being to receive any spiritual truth from God unless God does something to allow them to do so, yet Romans 1:16 says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. How powerful is the Gospel if it cant even give a person who was born dead in sin the ability to receive spiritual life? Why does God have to do anything more if the preached Gospel is God's power unto salvation?