.....on this site? We have Christians who adhere to Calvinism on this site which means they adhere to the Westminster Confession and TULIP. That theological belief teaches that some people are predestined to Heaven and some to Hell before they are born (i.e. Esau in Romans 9). Is this subject out of bounds for discussion on this site?

There are very few subjects that are off limits on this site...and that's one of the things that I love about MyPraize. :) And honestly, out of all the forumers, I can only think of three that adhere to Calvinism.

[b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote]There are very few subjects that are off limits on this site...and that's one of the things that I love about MyPraize. :) And honestly, out of all the forumers, I can only think of three that adhere to Calvinism.[/quote] And that would be you, Charlie and Caleb, right? :) I've been on forums where the majority adhere to Calvinism. Other than Charlie questioning my salvation, I have to say ya'll are the nicest Calvinists I've met. You and Caleb make your points without coming across as insulting and that's a rarety. Charlie has to work on that, but he's still cool beans. :) He's not treated me as badly as some of the others I've dialouged with.

So back to my other question. :) If you believe Calvinism is 100% correct than you must if also believe if you had 3 children, God may not have chosen any of them for salvation. If that were the case, why are there scriptures like these in the Bible that appear to indicate that you as a parent could have some bearing on where your children will end up spiritually? Proverbs 23: [color=#800080]13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 [b]Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[/b] [/color] Proverbs 22:15 [color=#800080]15Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.[/color] Proverbs 22:6 [color=#800080] 6Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.[/color]

Doublethink. Works wonders.

[b]serfofChrist92 wrote:[/b] [quote]Doublethink. Works wonders.[/quote] How about copy and paste to a Word document??? :side:

I would also like the real question I was asking answered in this post: [quote=RobtheBald] Why are there scriptures like these in the Bible that appear to indicate that you as a parent could have some bearing on where your children will end up spiritually? Proverbs 23: [color=#800080]13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 [b]Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[/b] [/color] Proverbs 22:15 [color=#800080]15Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.[/color] Proverbs 22:6 [color=#800080] 6Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.[/color] [/quote] I understand that we don't know who the elect are, but I would like to know why God is speaking as though a parent can have an effect on whether or not their child is elected if they really don't have an effect on it? Sounds like God is "double speaking" us if He has already elected or not elected one or all of our children for salvation before they were ever born.

[b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote]And honestly, out of all the forumers, I can only think of three that adhere to Calvinism.[/quote] Add another too that now :P I am a strong believer in reformed theology, especially when it comes to salvation, which is labeled as Calvinism. I believe that they all stem from total depravity which the bible is strong on (Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 8:7, Isaiah 64:6 to name a few) I think that if total depravity is not true then we would not need the atonement of Christ to cover our sin since we could, theoretically, be perfect and sinless by ourselves so Christs death would be useless. Because we can't do good and what we perceive to be good is unclean (Isaiah 64:6) how could be possible choose God. How could we possible do something good by choose God and by choosing God and us taking that initial step then it means at the end of the day then it is glory of ours that we are saved, even though God is the one that saved us, it makes it out that we did something to earn that salvation which can't be earnt (Ephesians 2:8-9) Ephesians 2:9 also says that it is set in such a way that no one can boast about it. If salvation is not done by works then how can we choose God? Us choosing God is a deed of ours, which the bible says can't be done. Also another thing on election is that many people see it as God keeping people out of heaven but that is not true, due to our fall and our sinfulness we are all running to hell and election is God bringing people from hell "Election isn't keeping people out of heaven that would otherwise not be there but it keeps a multitude of people out of hell that would otherwise be there" - C.J. Mahany, Sovereign Grace If you are skeptical on election I would strongly recommend the sermon that quote is from, It is on sermonindex but I don't know if I am allowed to post links here. EDIT: Here is the link for the sermon I am referring to. http://media.sermonindex.net/22/SID22312.mp3

[b]JxC90 wrote:[/b] [quote]"Election isn't keeping people out of heaven that would otherwise not be there but it keeps a multitude of people out of hell that would otherwise be there" - C.J. Mahany, Sovereign Grace If you are skeptical on election I would strongly recommend the sermon that quote is from, It is on Sermon Audio but I don't know if I am allowed to post links here.[/quote] Linking/sourcing is encouraged here. :)

Ok a question. If God is predetermining things then why give Torah for instructions? why bother giving instructions if you know who will and who won't accept them (because in fact they can't accept or deny the instructions, they can only do as God made them do)? It would seem more beneficial to have no instructions, merely punish the wicked reward the righteous (who are predetermined to be whichever they are).... who is wicked who is righteous is up to God anyway, and since a person has no say in whether he will be righteous or wicked, there's no sense trying to explain to them which is which..... Why pass from generation to generation the books of instruction if no one had to follow them.... take for instance if I buy premixed koolaid... that is to say koolaid already mixed with sugar and water in a jug (instead of a packet).... but on the label it none the less explained "mix 1 koolaid packet with 1 cup of sugar and a gallon of water" (or whatever)... why bother putting that on there... it has already been done, there is nothing for me to do but drink.... furthermore having the instructions on the pre-mixed container may lead me to err in thinking "surely they wouldn't put these instructions there if I didn't have to do anything" and adding additional water/sugar to the premix jug I bought.... making a very unsavory beverage.... Contrarily if Koolaid doesn't come premixed because it *is* dependent upon people making the *decision* to add water and sugar to a level of their personal satisfaction then it'd be a perfectly good reason to leave instructions on the packet. If the packet lasts for thousands of years and the writing rubs off then the knowledge of how to mix the koolaid sugar and water would necessarily be passed from generation to generation (at least if you value koolaid). The same could be used to say that the evidence of the instructions of God being passed from generation to generation unto this day is proof that one must make the decision to follow the instructions on their own accord. If man had no part in the decision of whether or not to follow, then it would be a pointless venture by God to give instructions to those who can neither follow nor disobey. Furthermore there would really be no righteous or wicked, because no one had a choice in the matter... only God would be righteous *and* wicked simultaneously for each creation he made that was one or the other. The instructions say clearly that there are righteous and there are wicked.... so then the instructions would be lying because only God (the decision maker) can be righteous or wicked. If I am forced at gun point to shoot someone is it my fault? So how much less would it be my fault if I'm forced not at gun point but by divine inspiration to shoot someone? I would be blameless in the scenario... it's all God. Personally I know people tend to blame God for practically everything.... but some things are our fault not his.... in order for it to be our fault it means we had the free will to fault... and if we have the free will to fault we have the free will to be correct... and that's a pretty good reason to give instructions, whether you're God or a parent....