My opinion is yes, because I believe that is what Jesus commanded. The Israelites expected a messiah that would lead the Jews to military victory and restore God's Kingdom to the Jews. However, God envisioned a grander Kingdom of Heaven, a "new Jerusalem" (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 3:12 and 21) that was no attained by force, but by Jesus' precious blood on the cross and his resurrection. Obviously Jesus did not command people to attack one another, so I am not talking about whether it is right to attack without reason. We all agree that such a move is immoral. But how about self defense? Luke 27[Jesus said,] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic." You cannot justify war out of self defense. I am sure that one can pull out a passage from the Old Testament that says otherwise, but Jesus offered a new covenant that supercedes the old. He even specifically repudiated the idea that retribution is righteous: Matthew 38[Jesus said,] "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[Exodus 21:24] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person." Christians in this country have to stop asking for more war when it so blatantly goes against the commands of our Lord and Savior. I mean, I do not want to be blown up or nuked either, but my security and possessions here on Earth take a back seat to the will of God.

[b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]You cannot justify war out of self defense.[/quote] How about defense of allies? If you say it's still immoral, let me ask you a question. Say your neighbor is being raped. You know it's happening. Calling the police is pointless because the rapist will be long gone by the time they get there. You have a gun in your hand. Is it wrong to perform a citizens arrest or even go so far as to use the gun as a last resort in order to stop the rape?

[b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]You cannot justify war out of self defense.[/quote] How about defense of allies? If you say it's still immoral, let me ask you a question. Say your neighbor is being raped. You know it's happening. Calling the police is pointless because the rapist will be long gone by the time they get there. You have a gun in your hand. Is it wrong to perform a citizens arrest or even go so far as to use the gun as a last resort in order to stop the rape?[/quote] Jesus did not answer that obviously, though in Judges 20 the Lord commanded Israel to fight their brothers the Benjaminites over a rape in which they did not hand over the guilty party in Gibeah I believe. So, I believe a woman's honor and sanctity is a different story than being physically assaulted. Furthermore, in today's foreign policy, we are hardly looking at cut and dry cases where one side is clearly right and another clearly wrong. So, when in doubt at all costs avoid violence and do not look for trouble.

Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/07/13 09:04

[b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]You cannot justify war out of self defense.[/quote] How about defense of allies? If you say it's still immoral, let me ask you a question. Say your neighbor is being raped. You know it's happening. Calling the police is pointless because the rapist will be long gone by the time they get there. You have a gun in your hand. Is it wrong to perform a citizens arrest or even go so far as to use the gun as a last resort in order to stop the rape?[/quote] Jesus did not answer that obviously, though in Judges 20 the Lord commanded Israel to fight their brothers the Benjaminites over a rape in which they did not hand over the guilty party in Gibeah I believe. So, I believe a woman's honor and sanctity is a different story than being physically assaulted. Furthermore, in today's foreign policy, we are hardly looking at cut and dry cases where one side is clearly right and another clearly wrong. So, when in doubt at all costs avoid violence and do not look for trouble.<br><br>Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/07/13 09:04[/quote] Hmm...I don't think there's too much of a difference, personally.

That's hard to believe, being that we attacked a country twice (Iraq) when it never attacked us, and before you add that we were coming to Kuwait's defense, one is only looking for trouble when one meddles in other country's foreign affairs. We also kept supporting Israel, even though I think that country is "right," knowing that it made people angry. Again, trying to do nice things for Kuwait and Israel led to people becoming angry enough to attack us on 9/11, so then we attack two more countries, and just recently we find Al Qaeda at full operating strength. Our foreign policy, though with the best intentions has failed to be helpful, and it is easy to see why. Wars are in their nature bad just as violence is. As you point out in your example about the rape, there are righteous examples of using violence that thereby leads to a more positive end. Look at World War II. No one here is going to say that the world would be better of if Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were unopposed. However, how many totally useless wars (Vietnam, Iraq, World War I, etcetera) that contributed nothing but bloodshed can we count against it? Just think of the history of the world and the amount of needless wars. My point is that for every just instance for violence, there are countless unjust instances. That's why it is best to turn the other cheek. Because when we stop turning the cheek and start assuming that we know for a fact that violence is best, we end up doing a bunch of bad things that only put us in worse situation. The Son of God was onto something. So, if you honestly believe there is a situation, like that rape, which calls for action which might oppose Jesus' commands, be prepared to be judged by God and hope your attentions are pure. If your intentions are impure, if you are looking for revenge and honor, if you hate your enemy, if you commit acts of questionable retaliation at the drop of a hat, if you support uninstigated acts of pre-emptive war, then the Lord sitting at the right hand of God, in my humble opinion, will most likely be displeased and condemn you for not turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, going the extra mile. Faith in Jesus with God's grace will count as righteousness. But without faithfully following the Lord's commands, how will one receive grace? By appealing to human wisdom? For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 18)

Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/07/13 09:38

[b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MisterNathan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]You cannot justify war out of self defense.[/quote] How about defense of allies? If you say it's still immoral, let me ask you a question. Say your neighbor is being raped. You know it's happening. Calling the police is pointless because the rapist will be long gone by the time they get there. You have a gun in your hand. Is it wrong to perform a citizens arrest or even go so far as to use the gun as a last resort in order to stop the rape?[/quote] Jesus did not answer that obviously, though in Judges 20 the Lord commanded Israel to fight their brothers the Benjaminites over a rape in which they did not hand over the guilty party in Gibeah I believe. So, I believe a woman's honor and sanctity is a different story than being physically assaulted. Furthermore, in today's foreign policy, we are hardly looking at cut and dry cases where one side is clearly right and another clearly wrong. So, when in doubt at all costs avoid violence and do not look for trouble.<br><br>Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/07/13 09:04[/quote] Hmm...I don't think there's too much of a difference, personally.[/quote] Well you aren't a woman. There is so much more to rape than the fact it hurts. It is taking something away and leaving something behind. It is physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually excruciating. I would rather be beat up any day. Not to mention the fact that rape ofter goes hand in hand with obdution and murder.

all i did was read the title of this and all im gonna say (at least for now, lolz) is that you should read "Wild At Heart"...it's good