Well, I was lying in bed this morning quite determined to put off getting up for as long as I could, when out of the blue Isaiah 9:6 opped into my head. Ok, that was unexpected. I wasn't even thinking about that, I was trying to remember the lyrics of a totally unrelated song. But hey, whatever, I guess it's relevant here right now. Anyway, the 'discussion' on whether or not Jesus was God came up recently, and I just spent three hours at the library poring ove massive old Bibles trying to find relevant material. There was a whole bunch of stuff from Paul, but I'm ignoring that for now, as I'm aware not everyone here accepts him. This is what I found: Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. The government shall be on his shoulders, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Councellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. John 14: 9-11 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. And on pre-existance: John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Micah 5.2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. And of course, the famous John 1 passage: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Replies?

Isaiah 9- Keep going to chapter 11. These are not separated by any traveling, or other retelling of events. It is a single sermon, in which we also hear that the person in question will have a FEAR of the L-rd. One need not fear oneself. Well, a MAN might, if he lack self-control, but G-d certainly has no need for this. [quote] John 10:30 I and my Father are one. [/quote] "The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, even as we are one - I untied with them and you with me, so that they may be completely one and the world thus realize that you sent me, and that you have loved them, just as you have loved me." John 17 Are you and I one? Are we the SAME? But we disagree, so let me ask are Barry, Negi, and I one? Am I the father of their children? Of course not. We're speaking of being one in the spirit here. And in that sense, we CAN be, and SHOULD be one. Messiah was ABUNDANDTLY clear. Not only CAN we be one, BUT that He means the SAME THING when speaking of believers being one, as He did when He spoke of being one with the Father- Indeed, he says that vicariously, WE can be one with the Father, if WE are one with Jesus, and HE is one with G-d. This has nothing to do with trinity, or Messiah being G-d. There is only one G-d, our Father (Exo 4:22), and any being which is not our Father cannot be G-d (Exo 20).

Right! Mattbob's turn. You get a post all for you. You should feel very special [b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]Isaiah 9- Keep going to chapter 11. These are not separated by any traveling, or other retelling of events. It is a single sermon, in which we also hear that the person in question will have a FEAR of the L-rd. One need not fear oneself. Well, a MAN might, if he lack self-control, but G-d certainly has no need for this. [/quote] The fear of the Lord doesn't mean being afraid of Him. It is humbling yourself before him, and that is something Jesus did. Please see my post in 'If Jesus isn't God...'. [quote] [quote] John 10:30 I and my Father are one. [/quote] "The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, even as we are one - I untied with them and you with me, so that they may be completely one and the world thus realize that you sent me, and that you have loved them, just as you have loved me." John 17 Are you and I one? Are we the SAME? But we disagree, so let me ask are Barry, Negi, and I one? Am I the father of their children? Of course not. We're speaking of being one in the spirit here. And in that sense, we CAN be, and SHOULD be one. [/quote] We are not physically one, but spiritually yes, we are. Or should be, anyway. God is spirit though, so to be spiritually one with him is to be one with him altogether. [quote] Messiah was ABUNDANDTLY clear. Not only CAN we be one, BUT that He means the SAME THING when speaking of believers being one, as He did when He spoke of being one with the Father- Indeed, he says that vicariously, WE can be one with the Father, if WE are one with Jesus, and HE is one with G-d.[/quote] Exactly. Spiritually one. [quote] This has nothing to do with trinity, or Messiah being G-d. There is only one G-d, our Father (Exo 4:22), and any being which is not our Father cannot be G-d (Exo 20).[/quote] There is only one God, but He is in three parts. One God, three roles. An analogy I heard once was relating the Trinity to humankind. For example, I am Sara. I am one person, and only one, but I have several roles, and I act differently within those roles. I am a daughter, a sister and a friend. In my role as a daughter, I act differently to how I would act as a friend or as a sister. I am several things at once, but all of those things are Sara. They are all separate, yet all one. Edit: Spell check :p

Post edited by: larry229, at: 2008/05/07 04:46

??? Well, if you're Sara, who is Larry? (I'll get to the other stuff later. Just curious)

Okay.... Here we have a lot of Scripture saying that Yeshua is HaShem. We have several "opinions" with no Scritpure refuting that point. Both sides are presented, and both sides have made their case. Now it is for each one to decide on his own. -Matt

?? Isaiah 11? John 17? Exodus 20? It seems like there is scripture on both sides, brother... ? But of course, I'm not challenging your ruling here, of locking the thread. Just wanted to put that out.

Since Larry sent me such a polite request.... Have fun! B) -Matt

[b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]?? Isaiah 11? John 17? Exodus 20? It seems like there is scripture on both sides, brother... ? But of course, I'm not challenging your ruling here, of locking the thread. Just wanted to put that out.[/quote] Your scriptures don't say that he wasn't God though. They merely provide vague context clues that can be swung either way. Some of my scriptures give context clues like that, but some of them, Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1 specifically, provide something rather stronger. [b] Negi wrote:[/b] [quote] Nah, I'm tired and bored. I'll just watch and let Matt handle it. Though I MIGHT make a post or two. [/quote] Aw! Come on! Don't wuss out on me now! [b]MaddMatt wrote: [/b] [quote] Since Larry sent me such a polite request.... Have fun! [/quote] Thank you very much ;) :)

[b]larry229 wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]?? Isaiah 11? John 17? Exodus 20? It seems like there is scripture on both sides, brother... ? But of course, I'm not challenging your ruling here, of locking the thread. Just wanted to put that out.[/quote] Your scriptures don't say that he wasn't God though. They merely provide vague context clues that can be swung either way. Some of my scriptures give context clues like that, but some of them, Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1 specifically, provide something rather stronger.[/quote] I'm sure you think so. Just like *I* think Isaiah 11 negates your point about Isaiah 9, and John complies 100% with Kabbalistic cosmology, whereas you must stretch to make "The Word" of G-d synonymous WITH G-d, before you can use it to say that JESUS is G-d. I'm kinda with Negi. I see no progress being made here. "We never free a mind once it reaches a certain age" -Morpheus

[b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote][b]larry229 wrote:[/b] [quote][b]MattBob_SquarePants wrote:[/b] [quote]?? Isaiah 11? John 17? Exodus 20? It seems like there is scripture on both sides, brother... ? But of course, I'm not challenging your ruling here, of locking the thread. Just wanted to put that out.[/quote] Your scriptures don't say that he wasn't God though. They merely provide vague context clues that can be swung either way. Some of my scriptures give context clues like that, but some of them, Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1 specifically, provide something rather stronger.[/quote] I'm sure you think so. Just like *I* think Isaiah 11 negates your point about Isaiah 9, and John complies 100% with Kabbalistic cosmology, whereas you must stretch to make "The Word" of G-d synonymous WITH G-d, before you can use it to say that JESUS is G-d. I'm kinda with Negi. I see no progress being made here. "We never free a mind once it reaches a certain age" -Morpheus[/quote] :laugh: :laugh: It isn't a stretch, but whatever. How old do you think I am?