It is time to embrace a non-interventionist foreign policy for "If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; [b]if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword [u]must[/u] he be slain[/b]. [u]Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints[/u]." (Revelations 13:10) This mirrors the declarations of the Lord: -"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for [b]all who draw the sword will die by the sword[/b]." (Matthew 26:52) -"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [b]If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also[/b]. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic." (Luke 6:27-29) -""You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[Exodus 21:24] 39But I tell you, [b]Do not resist an evil person[/b]."" (Matthew 5:38-39) Do you people ever wonder how so many Christians are and will be led astray and worship anti-christs? It is simple--you guys are missing the obvious, it is in plain black and white above. Do you honestly believe those who preach peace are the ones the Bible warns you of or those that preach hate and war? You have been warned. Repent, because your salvation depends upon it.

...and JamesRaio is nowhere to be found... Jewy ftw!

Because I really want to help all of you, I will not be angered by so many obvious attempts to defame and mock me. The anti-christ will be as follows: [quote]Daniel 8:23 "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. [b]He will cause astounding devastation[/b] and will succeed in whatever he does. [b]He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people.[/b] 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.[/quote] [quote]Revelations 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? [b]Who is able to make war with him?[/b]" 7[b]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them[/b]: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."[/quote] Again, we will know the anti-christ by his fruits. He brings fruits of war. No where is it commanded since the time of Christ that we must act violently. None of the early Christians did. Neither did Jesus nor his martyred apostles. Revelations clearly commands Christians to turn the other cheek. Clearly, this is something anti-christs will not do. Why boast in how right you are when you have no scripture to support your position? [b]If anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. [u]This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.[/b][/u] How can patient endurance possibly mean retaliation within this context? Repent! Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 02:56

[b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]Because I really want to help all of you, I will not be angered by so many obvious attempts to defame and mock me.[/quote] Look dude... no offense, but look at the obvious hypocrisy in your statement. 1) You really are angered by the statements made about you or you wouldn't have said anything. 2) If you really wanted to help us, I think you'd have a different title than "Repent from your lust for violence." I mean really, there are better ways to get through to someone than a 'holier than you, REPENT!' attitude. 3) No one was trying to defame you... we were just stating it as we saw it. [quote] Again, we will know the anti-christ by his fruits. He brings fruits of war. No where is it commanded since the time of Christ that we must act violently. None of the early Christians did. Neither did Jesus nor his martyred apostles. Revelations clearly commands Christians to turn the other cheek. Clearly, this is something anti-christs will not do.[/quote] So like... where's the passage about how to deal with people that think they can get to heaven by blowing you and themselves up? [quote] Why boast in how right you are when you have no scripture to support your position?[/quote] umm... did you miss Brandon's post or are you just ignoring it? [quote] [b]If anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. [u]This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.[/b][/u]] How can patient endurance possibly mean retaliation within this context? Repent![/quote] Really... repent for what? you don't even know me. And... like, I'm not even old enough to enlist in the army.. so like, really, what am I repenting for? [quote] Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.<br><br>Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 02:56[/quote] lol... what does this have to do with anything? And really, I have no problem with turning the other cheek, loving those who persecute [b]me[/b]. But if someone does something to someone I love and care about, I will retaliate. Plain and simple. Also, is it wrong for a government to fight in wars to defend its citizens? Or should a nations government just roll over and let others kill everyone?

I do not believe God cares about what is good for governments. Christians did not follow the Emperor Cult, which was bad for Roman stability. Ultimately, this was a contributing factor to the collapse of Rome. Doing God's bidding by being slaves of Christ is what is important. If God commands us not to defend ourselves and to be patient while the world is warring, then that is what we must do. You speak highly of retaliation, but "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person." (Matthew 5:38-39) God specifically commanded the Israelites to war with particular neighbors. However, God has issued us no new commands, no new enemies. Instead, the Prince of Peace has clearly commanded us that we are to fight no more. For clarity, I repeat Isaiah 1: [quote]Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. [b]Your hands are full of blood[/b]; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! [b]Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed.[/b] Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. [b]If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but [u]if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.[/u][/b][/quote] What specific instance leads to us being devoured by the sword? The Lord has been clear: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Matthew 26:52) "If anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints." (Revelations 13:10) Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 04:24 Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 04:25

Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 04:25

[b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]I do not believe God cares about what is good for governments. Christians did not follow the Emperor Cult, which was bad for Roman stability. Ultimately, this was a contributing factor to the collapse of Rome.[/quote] My point was whether or not it is the place of the government to protect its citizens. [quote] Doing God's bidding by being slaves of Christ is what is important. If God commands us not to defend ourselves and to be patient while the world is warring, then that is what we must do.[/quote] "If" is the key word. [i]Open your mouth, judge righteously, [u]defend the rights of the poor and needy.[/u][/i] -Proverbs 31:9 [i]They have grown fat and sleek. They know no bounds in deeds of evil; they judge not with justice the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper, and they [u]do not defend the rights of the needy. [/u][/i] -Jeremiah 5:28 (emphasis added to both) [quote] "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person." (Matthew 5:38-39)[/quote] So, with your interpretation of that verse, any resistance of someone who is evil is sin. So then you resisting the evil antichrists and their doctrines of war and hate is sin. [quote] What specific instance leads to us being devoured by the sword? The Lord has been clear:[/quote] Well... many. It is written that the world will hate us for following Christ. They will persecute and kill us; they will do this whether we have fought with a sword or not. [quote] "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Matthew 26:52) "If anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints." (Revelations 13:10)[/quote] Another thing... these verses merely state that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. But these verses don't actually say it is wrong, they just state the consequences.

I also would like to know if you have any Scriptural backup for this claim. [b]JamesRaio wrote:[/b] [quote]You have been warned. Repent, because your salvation depends upon it.[/quote]

[quote]Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. -Proverbs 31:9 They have grown fat and sleek. They know no bounds in deeds of evil; they judge not with justice the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper, and they do not defend the rights of the needy. -Jeremiah 5:28[/quote] Neither verse commands physical action. You can vouch for the oppressed, like MLK, without hurting people. [quote]So, with your interpretation of that verse, any resistance of someone who is evil is sin. So then you resisting the evil antichrists and their doctrines of war and hate is sin.[/quote] The word translated to mean resist is talking about physical resistance. [quote]Calling this nonviolent resistance may strike some as odd, given that Jesus says in the Gospel of Matthew, “Do not resist an evildoer” (Matt. 5:38-42). But as scripture scholar Walter Wink has documented, the meaning of the original Greek is quite different. While the verb antistenai has been almost universally translated as “resist,” it is a military term that actually means “resist violently or lethally.” Rather than exhorting us to passivity, Jesus urges us to repudiate violence in our response to the evildoer.[/quote] http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:3dia_2Wnk28J:www.paceebene.org/pace/nvns/essays-on-nonviolence/the-spiritual-journey-of-christian-no+antistenai+physically+resist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+5:39&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en Thus, as Rev 13:10 says, we are to be patient as we are slain and incarcerated, for God is just and will essentially "return the 'favor.'" You may be young, so I forgive you for your lack of philosophical sophistication. I think your attempt you use philosophy (i.e. "any resistance of someone who is evil is sin. So then you resisting the evil antichrists and their doctrines of war and hate is sin.") by trying to use dialectics to construe universals is in my opinion a dangerous hellenistic practice that Paul has advised us against: "See to it that no one takes you captive with deceitful philosophy." (Col 2:8) Avoid philosophy all together when it pertains to spiritual matters. [quote]I also would like to know if you have any Scriptural backup for this claim.[/quote] No matter the sin, unless we repent, have faith, and receive God's grace, we are screwed. Having blood on one's hands, literally or figuratively, is definitely not the way to get God's favor. Is 1:15 So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. [quote]Another thing... these verses merely state that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. But these verses don't actually say it is wrong, they just state the consequences.[/quote] What part of, "If [b][u][i]anyone[/b][/u][/i] slays with the sword, with the sword [b][i][u]must[/b][/i][/u] he be slain" is difficult to understand? There are no exceptions made for "just" or "Christian" slayings. "Anyone" who slays "must" be slain. Because Revelations obviously deals with the prayers of the Saints in chapter 5 for divine justice, it is not Christians or any human authority that carries out God's command for justice. God will judge everyone by the fruits they bare, and if the slay they will be slain. It is quite simple. "Christians" are in a position of incredible power right now, and the way we muscle out and oppress those weaker than us, we have become the wicked nation Isaiah has decried. We ignore those commandments we do not like--the obvious ones that tell us not to kill. God will judge us for all our sins, but especially in the end times, the importance of not warring and joining the Beast is paramount. The way many act here, the Beast will find, as foretold in scripture, many adherents who will so quickly turn their backs on God and instead do the bidding of evil by being violent. I am speaking to Christians here. I have no need to beat around the bush. I do not espouse hate, I am calling you to love your enemy and not physically resist evil. We, collectively, need to repent from our love of hate and war. Because the result of our hate and violence, our "slayings" with the sword, will be our own condemnation. For "if [b][u][i]anyone[/b][/u][/i] slays with the sword, with the sword [b][i][u]must[/b][/i][/u] he be slain."

Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 05:58

hoy vey.... [quote]Neither verse commands physical action. You can vouch for the oppressed, like MLK, without hurting people.[/quote] The verses merely says to defend. It doesn't specify whether it is spoken or physical. [quote]The word translated to mean resist is talking about physical resistance.[/quote] So... from your source, it means lethal resistance. Does that mean it's OK as long as it is non-lethal? With my statement "So, with your interpretation of that verse, any resistance of someone who is evil is sin. So then you resisting the evil antichrists and their doctrines of war and hate is sin." I was attempting to show you the faultiness in the interpretation that any resistance of evil is sin... -- You're only like, what, 4, maybe 5 years older than me. But thanks anyways for your pardoning my lack of sophistication. It is really kind of you to forgive me because of my age. Thanks! :dry: [quote] No matter the sin, unless we repent, have faith, and receive God's grace, we are screwed. Having blood on one's hands, literally or figuratively, is definitely not the way to get God's favor.[/quote] So does Christ's blood cover all of our sins, or just the individual ones we repent for? [quote] What part of, "If anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain" is difficult to understand? There are no exceptions made for "just" or "Christian" slayings. "Anyone" who slays "must" be slain. Because Revelations obviously deals with the prayers of the Saints in chapter 5 for divine justice, it is not Christians or any human authority that carries out God's command for justice. God will judge everyone by the fruits they bare, and if the slay they will be slain. It is quite simple. [/quote] Yeah... but Jesus Himself told the disciples to get sword! (Luke 23:36-38) [at least I think that is what the passage says... :pinch: ] Nothing is difficult to understand, thanks for asking! I was merely stating that the verse states a cause and effect. I don't think you get what I'm trying to say... I never said Christians are exempt from rules. hoy vey.

Post edited by: serfofChrist92, at: 2007/10/08 07:12

[quote]"Neither verse commands physical action. You can vouch for the oppressed, like MLK, without hurting people." The verses merely says to defend. It doesn't specify whether it is spoken or physical.[/quote] That is exactly what I was saying. [quote]So... from your source, it means lethal resistance. Does that mean it's OK as long as it is non-lethal?[/quote] Sure, by all means! You may have freedom marches, boycotts, fill prisons up to capacity, or even berate evil doers hoping to stop the evil. I think no problem with that can be found. [quote]With my statement "So, with your interpretation of that verse, any resistance of someone who is evil is sin. So then you resisting the evil antichrists and their doctrines of war and hate is sin." I was attempting to show you the faultiness in the interpretation that any resistance of evil is sin...[/quote] Now you are already backtracking. You were clearly trying to state premises as if they were universals, in order to assert some reductio ad absurdum in order to prove your point, that there must be just uses for violence, valid. Not only did your original argument fail to make the non-interventionist policies I support appear to be absurd, it failed to address scripture. It was a merely a muddled combination of faint biblical and philosophical notions, reflecting your lack of education in either area. Worse yet, it did absolutely nothing to support your position. It betrayed your lack of sophistication. This does not make you a bad person, and I wanted to avoid holding it over to you, warning you to avoid philosophy. First, philosophy will get no one anywhere and second, I have the years and education in which to defeat you in any philosophical argument, even if you were right and I were wrong. I do not seek to "score points," as some here might as one post already had a pseudo score board. I do not wish to flaunt anything about myself. Let us avoid a discussion of philosophy or our personal backgrounds. Lets turn to scripture, let's focus on the will of God. [quote]So does Christ's blood cover all of our sins, or just the individual ones we repent for?[/quote] Christ's blood, as far as I can understand, was an atoning sacrifice. Our faith is our service. But how can we be faithful without actively trying to repent from our sins? Nothing can make us righteous, but we endanger our faith by willfully continuing sin. James 2:17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. [quote]Yeah... but Jesus Himself told the disciples to get sword! (Luke 23:36-38) [at least I think that is what the passage says... ][/quote] True, but what happened after this? Luke 22:49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "[b]Lord, should we strike with our swords[/b]?" 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. 51But Jesus answered, "[b]No more of this[/b]!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him. It appears that Jesus wanted to make a point and let it be seen that Christians were not to defend themselves with the sword. Probably so, because Jesus afterward states that he is not "leading a rebellion" (Luke 22:52) and accepts his own arrest so that through his execution we may redeemed. Furthermore, there is a sword in revelations: the Lord's tongue. Just as in Genesis 1, God's active power is through His Word, and divine justice is not literally conducted with a sword--this is something that merely reflects the extent of man's power. God's power through the Word is beyond that of this. How much are God's ways beyond our ways? We get angry, we defend ourselves, we kill and maim our neighbor. Can I guarantee you that I will be so faithful that I will turn the other cheek in trial? No, I am a sinful depraved human! How much inferior are my and your ways from God's, whose son was delivered to the hands of human authorities and executed and whose power to allot justice puts shame to our weakness? [quote]Nothing is difficult to understand, thanks for asking! I was merely stating that the verse states a cause and effect. I don't think you get what I'm trying to say... I never said Christians are exempt from rules. hoy vey.[/quote] Again, more back tracking. "Cause and effect," "if and then," forget philosophy! You clearly asserted that the verses did not offer commands or denounce particular actions. However, as I have shown, they specifically do. This is all too clear in Revelations 13:10 where we are told that [u]anyone[/u] who slays with the sword will and [u]must[/u] be slain by the sword in effect for the transgression of using a sword to kill. It is perfectly clear as is this: Revelations 22:11 "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy." We are not to take up the sword and claim for it to be just. Our job is to be righteous and holy. Have faith that God will deal with the wrongful and vile as He sees fit.

Post edited by: JamesRaio, at: 2007/10/08 07:52